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There's an interesting point here right at the end. The solution to most problems that are most often tackled with jail time isn't jail. The war on drugs is th
by petewailes 10y ago
There's an interesting point here right at the end. The solution to most problems that are most often tackled with jail time isn't jail.
The war on drugs is the classic example. If a government doesn't want people abusing substances, that's fine, but the solution isn't jail sentences. It's addressing why people abuse them in the first place.
Jail is too often used as a rug to sweep those we disapprove of under. It's easier and quicker than trying to actually solve the problem, but it's also far less effective and more expensive in the long run.
It's high time society made a concerted effort to try and help people from these sorts of backgrounds, rather than demonising them in the media, and castigating them in the political arena. Rehabilitation, education and support are far more effective tools than jail for many crimes.
- CamperBob2 10y agoThe solution to car theft, however, is most definitely jail.
- adrianN 10y agoWhy not community service or a fine? It's a non-violent crime.
- dazc 10y agoI don't know what happens in the US but here in the UK fines can be paid in installments relative to the offender's income. Since they are likely to be on benefits and, technically, on a 'basic minimum income' (another story) this means the amount they have to pay each week/month is negligible and not a real deterrent. Community service also, here at least, is considered a soft option.
- lmm 10y ago> Community service also, here at least, is considered a soft option. "Is considered" is a weasel phrase. I don't know how you're defining "soft", but statistically community service is far more effective at reducing reoffending than prison is.
- dazc 10y ago> "I don't know how you're defining "soft", but statistically community service is far more effective at reducing reoffending than prison is." It may well be more effective but what I meant, in terms of being soft, is that it doesn't deter the initial offence in the same way the certainty of a prison sentence would do?
- lmm 10y agoDeterrence generally doesn't work though.
- dazc 10y agoWell, we don't know if does or not since those who have been deterred are not being counted.
- lmm 10y agoWe can measure what happens when e.g. sentencing guidelines for some particular crime change to favour prison over community service or vice versa.
- dazc 10y agoSeems like you have superior knowledge of the system so I'll defer to it. I guess I'm thinking of deterrents on a bigger scale. The kind of person who commits low-level crime probably doesn't weigh up the pros and cons (no pun intended) of getting caught?
- ZeroGravitas 10y agoSo you have large numbers of young people with nothing to lose in your society, but the "problem" is that they might disrupt the possessions of richer people and the "solution" is to pay to put them in prison? Surely there's a better way.
- dazc 10y ago> "Surely there's a better way." There is always a better way but we haven't found it yet. They don't just disrupt richer people though, they are a blight on all of society.
- DrJokepu 10y agoAlso making it more difficult to do anything with stolen cars.
- onion2k 10y agoThat isn't a solution. Even if prison stops someone being a thief that doesn't stop new thieves coming along. The solution to theft is to create a society where people don't feel the need or desire to steal things. That's much easier said than done though
- CamperBob2 10y agoYour outlook will probably change the first morning you walk outside to find your car missing.
- dagw 10y agoPossibly, but that doesn't make me right. If someone stole my car I don't doubt for a second that I would wish many many horrible (and very disproportionate) things on that person, but that's just me being petty and out for revenge. I (hopefully) wouldn't honestly start believing that it would be a good solution to the larger problem.
- CamperBob2 10y agoPossibly, but that doesn't make me right. If someone stole my car I don't doubt for a second that I would wish many many horrible (and very disproportionate) things on that person, but that's just me being petty and out for revenge No. I just want them out of circulation in society. I don't want them to be tortured, or even necessarily imprisoned. Buy them a one-way bus ticket to the next city for all I care. Here in the Seattle area, we've seen the effect of lenient auto theft laws, and also the effect when they're strengthened. It's not subject to debate. The statistics are very clear. Touchy-feely "punishments" aimed at social integration do not work on these people. But it is amazing (and amusing) to see people make words and ideas up and credit them to me.
- dagw 10y agoIt's not subject to debate. The statistics are very clear. Interesting. I'd really like to see those studies. Most studies I've seen on the subject are far from clear. And anyway I'm not necessarily arguing for leniency per se. just that I do not believe that simply locking people up for a long time is an effective or efficient way to actually solve anything. But it is amazing (and amusing) to see people make words and ideas up and credit them to me. What are you talking about? I was talking purely about myself.
- dragonwriter 10y ago> The solution to car theft, however, is most definitely jail. Sure, if everyone is in jail, and cars aren't allowed in the jail, there will be no car theft.