5 ms·

A major problem of English spelling reform is that pronunciation varies widely among native speakers. That problem is only made worse by an even greater number

by getoj 10y ago

A major problem of English spelling reform is that pronunciation varies widely among native speakers. That problem is only made worse by an even greater number of non-native speakers having appeared, with an even greater variety of pronunciations. If you say t'meito and I say t'mahto, and a Spanish speaker says tomato and a Korean speaker says 토마토 and a Japanese speaker says トマト, none of which are phonetically the same, it seems like spelling it 'tomato' is as good a system as any.

skissane 10y ago
I was about to say the same thing. For example, I speak a non-rhotic dialect of English (Australian) in which the "r" is silent in many words (e.g. "hard"); whereas in many other dialects (e.g. most US dialects) that "r" is pronounced. So, dropping the "r" from the spelling of that word would make it more phonetic for me, but less phonetic for most Americans. To introduce phonetic spelling into English, you'd need to either privilege one dialect's pronunciation over all the others (which speakers of those other dialects would be unlikely to accept), or else you'd end up with far greater spelling variation between different dialects of English than exists at present (which would harm international communication.) The other problem with phonetic spelling is that phonology changes faster than orthography. If we adopted phonetic spelling tomorrow, then within a few generations many of those spellings likely wouldn't be phonetic any more. Keeping orthography reasonably fixed over time (even as pronunciation changes) makes it easier for us to understand the written texts of past generations.
- eru 10y ago
  In German we went with the first option: elevate one dialect. I heard in Turkish they went with another option: everything is spelled phonetically, and there's a `standard' pronunciation / spelling. But I heard of a case where some people spell a word differently, because they pronounce it differently. (And that's seen not as a failing of these people's spelling.)
  - bigger_cheese 10y ago
    I had a friend from Austria who told me some words were spelt differently in 'Austrian German' than in Germany. So I think the same problem exists. I'm Australian we mostly use British English. The biggest complaint for me is in Programming language API's. "colour" vs "color" and "centre" vs "center" have cause me so many syntax errors.
    - bhaak 10y ago
      But do note that German doesn't have a phonetic spelling (like Turkish or Italian). It has a standardized spelling. For example with the last spelling reform, the rules for writing an ß or ss got streamlined. The rules follow the pronounciation of _some_ German speakers. If your region doesn't have the same pronounciation you can't rely on that but have to learn the rules. German being a pluricentric language and therefore people knowing that one spelling doesn't fit all, different spellings for different regions is just a pragmatic matter of fact. The various governmental and non-governmental organizations that work together for defining the official spelling just try to minimize the rules for spelling. So that German spelling doesn't become the abomination that English or French spelling is. ;-) Also we should remember that the official spelling is not mandatory. Nobody will sue you if you write "kuhl" instead of "cool" (unless you are a civil servant). There are of course soft factors at work so that your spelling isn't that far from the official one but there are still lots of people that write according to the old rules from before the spelling reform from 1996.
      - eru 10y ago
        Civil servant or a pupil.
        bhaak 10y ago
        Apparently not even pupils. There have been various reports in the last years that the spelling of pupils is getting worse as lots of teachers don't enforce the spelling. "Let them write how they feel writing, don't interrupt their creative processes with not so important rules".
ludamad 10y ago
Standardize around US English because people are most exposed to its pronounciation, IMO
- redsummer 10y ago
  Pronunciation.
- xufi 10y ago
  That'd be interesting but I remember when there was that whole movement of people wanting Esperanto to be a world wide language and look what happened to that
- jacalata 10y ago
  Which US English pronunciation exactly?
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
    Texan.
jamesrcole 10y ago
If we're talking about spelling reform in the sense of a more global standardisation, then I don't think pronunciation matters much. The relationship between spelling and pronunciation is already pretty arbitrary.

by getoj 10y ago

skissane 10y ago

I was about to say the same thing. For example, I speak a non-rhotic dialect of English (Australian) in which the "r" is silent in many words (e.g. "hard"); whereas in many other dialects (e.g. most US dialects) that "r" is pronounced. So, dropping the "r" from the spelling of that word would make it more phonetic for me, but less phonetic for most Americans. To introduce phonetic spelling into English, you'd need to either privilege one dialect's pronunciation over all the others (which speakers of those other dialects would be unlikely to accept), or else you'd end up with far greater spelling variation between different dialects of English than exists at present (which would harm international communication.) The other problem with phonetic spelling is that phonology changes faster than orthography. If we adopted phonetic spelling tomorrow, then within a few generations many of those spellings likely wouldn't be phonetic any more. Keeping orthography reasonably fixed over time (even as pronunciation changes) makes it easier for us to understand the written texts of past generations.

eru 10y ago
In German we went with the first option: elevate one dialect. I heard in Turkish they went with another option: everything is spelled phonetically, and there's a `standard' pronunciation / spelling. But I heard of a case where some people spell a word differently, because they pronounce it differently. (And that's seen not as a failing of these people's spelling.)
- bigger_cheese 10y ago
  I had a friend from Austria who told me some words were spelt differently in 'Austrian German' than in Germany. So I think the same problem exists. I'm Australian we mostly use British English. The biggest complaint for me is in Programming language API's. "colour" vs "color" and "centre" vs "center" have cause me so many syntax errors.
  - bhaak 10y ago
    But do note that German doesn't have a phonetic spelling (like Turkish or Italian). It has a standardized spelling. For example with the last spelling reform, the rules for writing an ß or ss got streamlined. The rules follow the pronounciation of _some_ German speakers. If your region doesn't have the same pronounciation you can't rely on that but have to learn the rules. German being a pluricentric language and therefore people knowing that one spelling doesn't fit all, different spellings for different regions is just a pragmatic matter of fact. The various governmental and non-governmental organizations that work together for defining the official spelling just try to minimize the rules for spelling. So that German spelling doesn't become the abomination that English or French spelling is. ;-) Also we should remember that the official spelling is not mandatory. Nobody will sue you if you write "kuhl" instead of "cool" (unless you are a civil servant). There are of course soft factors at work so that your spelling isn't that far from the official one but there are still lots of people that write according to the old rules from before the spelling reform from 1996.
    - eru 10y ago
      Civil servant or a pupil.
      - bhaak 10y ago
        Apparently not even pupils. There have been various reports in the last years that the spelling of pupils is getting worse as lots of teachers don't enforce the spelling. "Let them write how they feel writing, don't interrupt their creative processes with not so important rules".

ludamad 10y ago

Standardize around US English because people are most exposed to its pronounciation, IMO

redsummer 10y ago
Pronunciation.
xufi 10y ago
That'd be interesting but I remember when there was that whole movement of people wanting Esperanto to be a world wide language and look what happened to that
jacalata 10y ago
Which US English pronunciation exactly?
- GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
  Texan.

jamesrcole 10y ago

If we're talking about spelling reform in the sense of a more global standardisation, then I don't think pronunciation matters much. The relationship between spelling and pronunciation is already pretty arbitrary.