4 ms·

So having done a lot of work in the 911 systems for years, I have some first hand experience here. First, most pizza apps are just that, an app. That app has

So having done a lot of work in the 911 systems for years, I have some first hand experience here. First, most pizza apps are just that, an app. That app has access to your phones location data through GPS and some even use WiFi location services. Hence it can send a nearly exact position to where you are standing. Contrast that to the standard phone network and systems ANI/ALI solution, which still does not (completely) support GPS coordinates at this point. In addition, while there were phases (phase I and phase II) of cell phone location compliance put into place by the federal government, most networks and phone companies lagged far behind in implementation of those standards. On top of that, city and county 911 dispatch centers (PSAP and secondary centers) also have to upgrade their phone and CAD integrations to support better location services. As for why it isn't being disrupted. Simple, looooooooong sales cycles for an extremely limited market that is vigorously defended by the incumbents. Seriously, it isn't rare for a 2-3 year sales cycle for a lot of 911 components and systems. 18 months is about the normal when it involves critical systems with 12 months being probably the fastest you see anything change. Not to mention, the partners you need involved to make a solution work and be palatable to the 911 centers are the exact same companies who want to keep you out of their market, so it isn't easy. Not impossible, just not very probable without seriously deep pockets to support what would likely be a 3-5 year development to first sale. It makes selling to enterprises look like a fast process and cake walk.

OJFord 10y ago
Why don't Android, iOS, WP, etc. utilise GPS/WiFi when the dialer app dials 999/911/111/etc. and encode the caller's location in the call? Sure, there'd need to be a standard for doing that - if an obvious choice (or combination of choices) doesn't already exist - but to the naïve observer (me) that would seem far simpler than massive legacy hardware upgrades. Hell, it wouldn't even have to be encoded: it could just `say "caller is at $LOCATION"` prior to connecting the caller - giving the person in the call centre clear and precise information right away.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Such encoding is already part of the various standards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_resource_location_services_protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_resource_location_servic...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- praneshp 10y ago
  Then everyone here would complain about privacy/big government/orwellian dystopia
  - 0942v8653 10y ago
    For 911 only? I seriously doubt it.
    - retox 10y ago
      If it's possible, the government and eventually private companies will have access.
      - amagumori 10y ago
        That's the thing, the government and private companies already have access to your location data so it should be a no-brainer to extend that access to emergency response - a use of location data that would actually benefit the owner of the data, unlike gov't and private use of location data, which has a high benefit for gov't/private sector and marginal if any benefit for the data owner.
- astrodust 10y ago
  The accuracy can vary wildly and the last thing you need is sending the response team to the wrong location. A hundred meter error can be a huge deal in an urban environment. Plus there's the problem of conveying that information to emergency services. Each department, of which there are surely tens of thousands, may have completely different computer systems.
- davismwfl 10y ago
  Essentially what you propose isn't unrealistic technically, but it would still mean every telco, major and small clecs alike, plus all the hardware/software vendors would have to get on-board with an updated standard. I say updated because this is partially what the Phase II compliance was about trying to accomplish, although it fell short. I personally think this issue is more about people/companies and not about technology cause frankly the tech exists and isn't hard. It is politics and vendors refusing to agree because it isn't on their terms or where they can monetize it. But even at that, all the PSAPS and secondary centers too would still require an upgrade because the software and hardware they use to convert calls and strip the meta-data would need to be updated. In some cases I think today it would require more flashes of equipment versus new hardware, but it is still a big change. The voice option is interesting, but would hit a different type of issue, as it would require retraining of every call-taker and dispatcher, and would require significant system upgrades/changes still. Most times when you dial 911 in the US your call is routed to the nearest PSAP (based on the cell tower or physical address) then a call taker picks up the call and their first question is Police/Fire or Medical. Depending how you answer this your call is forwarded to either a dispatcher within their center or transferred. Many times these call takers have limited or no access to the CAD system from which your provider will be dispatched from, so they cannot add location data to a call. In other centers the call taker could do it, but it would still require retraining. Again, stupidity and politics is the problem here, not a technical issue. On the voice option, while we have come a long way in predictive dialing for marketing purposes call pickup and voice recognition is still one of the hardest parts, so playing the location message at the proper time to not over talk or delay the call needlessly across all the various centers in the US would take a pretty significant platform and a lot of testing. Last point, there are still a significant number of mobile devices that do not contain a GPS chip, which leads to the other problem, location can't be a standard around just GPS coordinates (yet). But most cell providers have the mojo now to use the towers to narrow your position quickly and automatically, another part of Phase compliance but the "area" they provide is still pretty damn big and doesn't make finding a person easy, but it at least narrows the area to search considerably. But how that gets communicated would all have to be agreed to by a huge number of people. Personally, I think I'd rather be blindfolded trying to heard cats in a field, it'd be easier then getting telcos and existing vendors on the same page.

OJFord 10y ago

Why don't Android, iOS, WP, etc. utilise GPS/WiFi when the dialer app dials 999/911/111/etc. and encode the caller's location in the call? Sure, there'd need to be a standard for doing that - if an obvious choice (or combination of choices) doesn't already exist - but to the naïve observer (me) that would seem far simpler than massive legacy hardware upgrades. Hell, it wouldn't even have to be encoded: it could just `say "caller is at $LOCATION"` prior to connecting the caller - giving the person in the call centre clear and precise information right away.

maxerickson 10y ago
Such encoding is already part of the various standards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_resource_location_services_protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_resource_location_servic...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
praneshp 10y ago
Then everyone here would complain about privacy/big government/orwellian dystopia
- 0942v8653 10y ago
  For 911 only? I seriously doubt it.
  - retox 10y ago
    If it's possible, the government and eventually private companies will have access.
    - amagumori 10y ago
      That's the thing, the government and private companies already have access to your location data so it should be a no-brainer to extend that access to emergency response - a use of location data that would actually benefit the owner of the data, unlike gov't and private use of location data, which has a high benefit for gov't/private sector and marginal if any benefit for the data owner.
astrodust 10y ago
The accuracy can vary wildly and the last thing you need is sending the response team to the wrong location. A hundred meter error can be a huge deal in an urban environment. Plus there's the problem of conveying that information to emergency services. Each department, of which there are surely tens of thousands, may have completely different computer systems.
davismwfl 10y ago
Essentially what you propose isn't unrealistic technically, but it would still mean every telco, major and small clecs alike, plus all the hardware/software vendors would have to get on-board with an updated standard. I say updated because this is partially what the Phase II compliance was about trying to accomplish, although it fell short. I personally think this issue is more about people/companies and not about technology cause frankly the tech exists and isn't hard. It is politics and vendors refusing to agree because it isn't on their terms or where they can monetize it. But even at that, all the PSAPS and secondary centers too would still require an upgrade because the software and hardware they use to convert calls and strip the meta-data would need to be updated. In some cases I think today it would require more flashes of equipment versus new hardware, but it is still a big change. The voice option is interesting, but would hit a different type of issue, as it would require retraining of every call-taker and dispatcher, and would require significant system upgrades/changes still. Most times when you dial 911 in the US your call is routed to the nearest PSAP (based on the cell tower or physical address) then a call taker picks up the call and their first question is Police/Fire or Medical. Depending how you answer this your call is forwarded to either a dispatcher within their center or transferred. Many times these call takers have limited or no access to the CAD system from which your provider will be dispatched from, so they cannot add location data to a call. In other centers the call taker could do it, but it would still require retraining. Again, stupidity and politics is the problem here, not a technical issue. On the voice option, while we have come a long way in predictive dialing for marketing purposes call pickup and voice recognition is still one of the hardest parts, so playing the location message at the proper time to not over talk or delay the call needlessly across all the various centers in the US would take a pretty significant platform and a lot of testing. Last point, there are still a significant number of mobile devices that do not contain a GPS chip, which leads to the other problem, location can't be a standard around just GPS coordinates (yet). But most cell providers have the mojo now to use the towers to narrow your position quickly and automatically, another part of Phase compliance but the "area" they provide is still pretty damn big and doesn't make finding a person easy, but it at least narrows the area to search considerably. But how that gets communicated would all have to be agreed to by a huge number of people. Personally, I think I'd rather be blindfolded trying to heard cats in a field, it'd be easier then getting telcos and existing vendors on the same page.