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>This changed in July 2015, when the ethereum network went live. I know the term exists and I know people are operating as though it is a thing. But if you an

>This changed in July 2015, when the ethereum network went live. I know the term exists and I know people are operating as though it is a thing. But if you and I enter a contract whether it is a written agreement or a smart contract on Ethereum network, that has no more or less bearing on the legal enforcement in the event of a breach. In either case the non-breaching party must file suit for the breach and there must be a finding of fact, and the smart contract does not replace the fact finder in a court of law any more than a traditional contract. I know you don't speak on their behalf but DAO has raised $100+M and the answer to a simple tax question is just wait? That is my point, investments are inherently risky, but when the most basic questions regarding operation and governance can't be answered that is a red flag.

rboyd 10y ago
>But if you and I enter a contract whether it is a written agreement or a smart contract on Ethereum network, that has no more or less bearing on the legal enforcement in the event of a breach. These contracts are enforced by math. Breaking them isn't a possibility. Whether or not The DAO works out or is a scam, I think it's a sign of things to come. We're in the beginning stages of seeing our traditional corporations and nation states morphing into something new and barely recognizable.
- vectorpush 10y ago
  > These contracts are enforced by math. Breaking them isn't a possibility. Math cannot "enforce" a contract, it can't even understand the terms of the agreement, much less enforce it. > We're in the beginning stages of seeing our traditional corporations and nation states morphing into something new and barely recognizable. This kind of hyperbolic nonsense strains credulity.
  - rboyd 10y ago
    Smart contracts are enforced programmatically, that's kind of the point. The future is always hard to believe until it's here. You can say you disagree and state why. But please don't call me a gullible idiot and then try to dress it up in fancy vocabulary. This kind of reply seems common in your comment history, like you're just generally angry around blockchain threads for some reason.
    - will_brown 10y ago
      >Smart contracts are enforced programmatically, that's kind of the point. Can you give hard examples of how enforcement can be done programmatically and mathematically? For example, I contract you to do X in exchange I will pay $Y and to get things started I give you a 10% down payment. If you don't do X, even in a court of law, it would be extremely rare for a court to order you to do X, rather they will generally order you to return my deposit and any additional damages I can prove as a result of your breach. Explain how the smart contract programatically forces you to do X, or how the smart contract can calculate real world damages above and beyond the 10% deposit? Alternatively, if you do X, but I think its subpar and refuse to pay unless you redue X to my standards, explain how the smart contract can determine who is in breach you for X not being up to standard or me for not paying. Trust me it sounds great to say math and code enforces a contract and ensures it can't be breached, the point is putting a contact on the block chain may prove the contract exists (though even that is debatable) but it can't self enforce. More generally in law, almost everyone knows less than 10% of cases go to trial, yes the typically settle, but this is also because when there is no "issue of material facts" a judgment can be awarded without trial, this is almost never the case in breach of contract cases, because there is always a question of fact: was the contract breached or not?
      - rboyd 10y ago
        As a hard example consider the typical crowdfunding protocol. The contract (in english) is roughly: if this campaign hits goal before a deadline passes, all the backers pledge their money; or if the deadline comes before hitting the goal the money is returned to backers. In today's world we rely on kickstarter programs or staff, credit cards and banking. Codified using a smart contract these rules can be executed automatically such that the backers are never at risk. This is what we mean when we say enforcement is automated. This is a canonical example, as seen here http://ether.fund/contracts/crowdfund http://ether.fund/contracts/crowdfund The reason the contract can be enforced is because in many of these smart contracts funds are held in escrow and are transacted only by the distributed app without the requirement or possibility of human involvement. Also check out Section 1.5(3) in [1]. Not all contracts can be executed and evaluated as smart contracts. The kinds of work agreement contracts you describe wouldn't be a natural fit. Some folks have suggested novel alternatives which could fit into smart contracts such as voting to elect delegates, arbitration courts, reputation systems, etc. when things get fuzzy. Obviously it's not a 1:1 replacement and I didn't mean to imply that it was. I just think it could be a mistake to dismiss this technology and the changes that could be coming. [1] A LAWYER’S INTRODUCTION TO SMART CONTRACTS http://www.crypto-law.com/doc/A%20Lawyer's%20Introduction%20to%20Smart%20Contracts.pdf http://www.crypto-law.com/doc/A%20Lawyer's%20Introduction%20...
- 6nf 10y ago
  If you pay a contractor to do something AFK and they take the money and run, how do you enforce the contract?

rboyd 10y ago

>But if you and I enter a contract whether it is a written agreement or a smart contract on Ethereum network, that has no more or less bearing on the legal enforcement in the event of a breach. These contracts are enforced by math. Breaking them isn't a possibility. Whether or not The DAO works out or is a scam, I think it's a sign of things to come. We're in the beginning stages of seeing our traditional corporations and nation states morphing into something new and barely recognizable.

vectorpush 10y ago
> These contracts are enforced by math. Breaking them isn't a possibility. Math cannot "enforce" a contract, it can't even understand the terms of the agreement, much less enforce it. > We're in the beginning stages of seeing our traditional corporations and nation states morphing into something new and barely recognizable. This kind of hyperbolic nonsense strains credulity.
- rboyd 10y ago
  Smart contracts are enforced programmatically, that's kind of the point. The future is always hard to believe until it's here. You can say you disagree and state why. But please don't call me a gullible idiot and then try to dress it up in fancy vocabulary. This kind of reply seems common in your comment history, like you're just generally angry around blockchain threads for some reason.
  - will_brown 10y ago
    >Smart contracts are enforced programmatically, that's kind of the point. Can you give hard examples of how enforcement can be done programmatically and mathematically? For example, I contract you to do X in exchange I will pay $Y and to get things started I give you a 10% down payment. If you don't do X, even in a court of law, it would be extremely rare for a court to order you to do X, rather they will generally order you to return my deposit and any additional damages I can prove as a result of your breach. Explain how the smart contract programatically forces you to do X, or how the smart contract can calculate real world damages above and beyond the 10% deposit? Alternatively, if you do X, but I think its subpar and refuse to pay unless you redue X to my standards, explain how the smart contract can determine who is in breach you for X not being up to standard or me for not paying. Trust me it sounds great to say math and code enforces a contract and ensures it can't be breached, the point is putting a contact on the block chain may prove the contract exists (though even that is debatable) but it can't self enforce. More generally in law, almost everyone knows less than 10% of cases go to trial, yes the typically settle, but this is also because when there is no "issue of material facts" a judgment can be awarded without trial, this is almost never the case in breach of contract cases, because there is always a question of fact: was the contract breached or not?
    - rboyd 10y ago
      As a hard example consider the typical crowdfunding protocol. The contract (in english) is roughly: if this campaign hits goal before a deadline passes, all the backers pledge their money; or if the deadline comes before hitting the goal the money is returned to backers. In today's world we rely on kickstarter programs or staff, credit cards and banking. Codified using a smart contract these rules can be executed automatically such that the backers are never at risk. This is what we mean when we say enforcement is automated. This is a canonical example, as seen here http://ether.fund/contracts/crowdfund http://ether.fund/contracts/crowdfund The reason the contract can be enforced is because in many of these smart contracts funds are held in escrow and are transacted only by the distributed app without the requirement or possibility of human involvement. Also check out Section 1.5(3) in [1]. Not all contracts can be executed and evaluated as smart contracts. The kinds of work agreement contracts you describe wouldn't be a natural fit. Some folks have suggested novel alternatives which could fit into smart contracts such as voting to elect delegates, arbitration courts, reputation systems, etc. when things get fuzzy. Obviously it's not a 1:1 replacement and I didn't mean to imply that it was. I just think it could be a mistake to dismiss this technology and the changes that could be coming. [1] A LAWYER’S INTRODUCTION TO SMART CONTRACTS http://www.crypto-law.com/doc/A%20Lawyer's%20Introduction%20to%20Smart%20Contracts.pdf http://www.crypto-law.com/doc/A%20Lawyer's%20Introduction%20...
6nf 10y ago
If you pay a contractor to do something AFK and they take the money and run, how do you enforce the contract?