5 ms·

>With union = No merit based pay. Unions aren't inherently against merit based pay. They're against merit based pay where managers get to unilaterally decide w

>With union = No merit based pay. Unions aren't inherently against merit based pay. They're against merit based pay where managers get to unilaterally decide what counts as merit. When managers (especially non-specialist managers) are in charge, fealty normally trumps competence anyway. >So what is the actual right path? Either come up with an objective standard for merit that unions and management can agree on or go for the closest objective approximation - seniority and accept that some incompetent people are going to take a paycheck (the horror!).

brianwawok 10y ago
> Either come up with an objective standard for merit that unions and management can agree on or go for the closest objective approximation - seniority and accept that some incompetent people are going to take a paycheck (the horror!). But better people deserve more pay, not just older people. If that is the only argument, I would argue to just get rid of unions.
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  The norm in most corporate and non-corporate environments that don't have unions is that the better person doesn't get better pay: the kiss ass does. Getting rid of unions does nothing to further merit based pay.
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    With unions - It literally does not matter what you do, you can't get fired, you get paid a set rate. Without unions - You negotiate a fair market value for your wage. You see no reason how without union could lead to better pay? How much could DHH get a job consulting Ruby for, vs someone who can hardly code?
- vidarh 10y ago
  Do you have any evidence that "better people" (according to what measurement?) generally are the ones who get better pay? The places I've worked it has generally seemed pretty arbitrary and largely down to who are best at negotiating. I've yet to work anywhere that have taken an anything remotely objective stance to measuring productivity and rewarding staff accordingly. The closest I've gotten was working for Yahoo, which at least tried to gather feedback, but the system was still inherently flawed by being based on managers ranking staff members without any kind of formalized system to ensure the rankings were objective. One year I was told that the group my team was in had too many "above expectations", and since two out of four on my team were ranked above expectations they had to arbitrarily drop one down to "meets expectations". (Not at any time while I was there did I see any kind of attempt at creating a uniform definition of what "meets expectations" or "exceeds expectations" meant; had a manager with high expectations? sucked to be you) Since that directly affected the raises I was allowed to allocate, and since the ranges were in percent of salary, that decision cost that person several thousand pounds a year on an ongoing basis that I was unable to adjust for the following years, because some HR drone was making the reports from line managers fit his idealised curve without making any attempt at verifying whether or not the reports matched reality. (as an aside: the origin of socialism, from Saint Simon, was the idea of a meritocracy)
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    For developers, better people tend to get better pay through job hopping. If an individual company only promotes brown nosers, there are other companies that are looking for talent. Source: Looking back at my college class. 10 years later - most of the people of MEH skill are at one level of job, and most of the people of high skill are at another job level. It's not a perfect correlation, and I am sure things like negotiation have a nontrivial impact.. but it is WAYYYYY better than looking at the staff of a local teacher union and pay rates.
aianus 10y ago
No, "the horror!" is that truly competent technical people no longer enter fields like teaching. You would have to be insane to do an extra Master's in order to earn $40k as a 'junior' CS or Math teacher when you can earn $150k in industry in SF straight out of undergrad. Some 50% of Ontario elementary teachers cannot do Grade 5 fractions. My CS teacher in high school was trained in history and geography and was literally concurrently learning the same course one lesson ahead of us. It's a disaster and it will never be fixed as long as the unions insist on paying STEM teachers the same as English teachers.
- hdctambien 10y ago
  There is no teacher union in Texas. Teachers in Texas are all paid the same based on years of service.
  - aianus 10y ago
    > Teachers in Texas are all paid the same based on years of service. Do you have a source for this? The first thing I found on google was an article[0] which indicates teacher pay in Texas varies both with respect to location and subject taught (although admittedly not by much). [0] http://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/headlines/20150627-starting-teacher-pay-reaches-50000-in-many-north-texas-districts.ece http://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/headlines/20150627-...
    - hdctambien 10y ago
      Source: I'm a teacher in Texas. Here is the payscale for my district: https://docs.google.com/a/roundrockisd.org/file/d/0B13hERGxqDqDMEZ3ZDlnQWd6Yk0/edit https://docs.google.com/a/roundrockisd.org/file/d/0B13hERGxq... Each district determines its own payscale. That's no different than a union state. Teachers in Boston have a different payscale than teachers in Springfield, MA even though they are both part of the MTA. CTE Teachers (Career and Technical Education) do get a $2000 stipend but they also have an extra week of work plus extracurricular duties during the school year, so it's not just "extra money". There is no negotiating over salary or benefits. "Employees are paid in accordance with administrative guidelines and an established pay structure. The District’s compensation plan is reviewed by Human Resource Services each year to include comparisons with other districts, an analysis of market data, as well as cost of living information. The compensation plan is adjusted as data dictates and the budget allows. The Board of Trustees approves the compensation plan on an annual basis."[1] This is the Dallas pay schedule: http://www.nctq.org/docs/DISD_2015-2016_Salary_Handbook_FINAL.pdf http://www.nctq.org/docs/DISD_2015-2016_Salary_Handbook_FINA... (page 9) They do pay more in Dallas but there still is no negotiation over your salary. It looks like Dallas is replacing the "years of service" schedule with a pay-for-performance schedule (page 8) where your salary is adjusted up or down according to "performance, student achievement and student perception surveys."[2] That went into effect last year, I believe. I wouldn't be surprised to see that spread. [1] https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B13hERGxqDqDR19OcW1WRHpEd0U/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B13hERGxqDqDR19OcW1WRHpEd0U... (page 15) [2] http://tei.dallasisd.org/current-teachers-2/ http://tei.dallasisd.org/current-teachers-2/

brianwawok 10y ago

> Either come up with an objective standard for merit that unions and management can agree on or go for the closest objective approximation - seniority and accept that some incompetent people are going to take a paycheck (the horror!). But better people deserve more pay, not just older people. If that is the only argument, I would argue to just get rid of unions.

crdoconnor 10y ago
The norm in most corporate and non-corporate environments that don't have unions is that the better person doesn't get better pay: the kiss ass does. Getting rid of unions does nothing to further merit based pay.
- brianwawok 10y ago
  With unions - It literally does not matter what you do, you can't get fired, you get paid a set rate. Without unions - You negotiate a fair market value for your wage. You see no reason how without union could lead to better pay? How much could DHH get a job consulting Ruby for, vs someone who can hardly code?
vidarh 10y ago
Do you have any evidence that "better people" (according to what measurement?) generally are the ones who get better pay? The places I've worked it has generally seemed pretty arbitrary and largely down to who are best at negotiating. I've yet to work anywhere that have taken an anything remotely objective stance to measuring productivity and rewarding staff accordingly. The closest I've gotten was working for Yahoo, which at least tried to gather feedback, but the system was still inherently flawed by being based on managers ranking staff members without any kind of formalized system to ensure the rankings were objective. One year I was told that the group my team was in had too many "above expectations", and since two out of four on my team were ranked above expectations they had to arbitrarily drop one down to "meets expectations". (Not at any time while I was there did I see any kind of attempt at creating a uniform definition of what "meets expectations" or "exceeds expectations" meant; had a manager with high expectations? sucked to be you) Since that directly affected the raises I was allowed to allocate, and since the ranges were in percent of salary, that decision cost that person several thousand pounds a year on an ongoing basis that I was unable to adjust for the following years, because some HR drone was making the reports from line managers fit his idealised curve without making any attempt at verifying whether or not the reports matched reality. (as an aside: the origin of socialism, from Saint Simon, was the idea of a meritocracy)
- brianwawok 10y ago
  For developers, better people tend to get better pay through job hopping. If an individual company only promotes brown nosers, there are other companies that are looking for talent. Source: Looking back at my college class. 10 years later - most of the people of MEH skill are at one level of job, and most of the people of high skill are at another job level. It's not a perfect correlation, and I am sure things like negotiation have a nontrivial impact.. but it is WAYYYYY better than looking at the staff of a local teacher union and pay rates.

aianus 10y ago

No, "the horror!" is that truly competent technical people no longer enter fields like teaching. You would have to be insane to do an extra Master's in order to earn $40k as a 'junior' CS or Math teacher when you can earn $150k in industry in SF straight out of undergrad. Some 50% of Ontario elementary teachers cannot do Grade 5 fractions. My CS teacher in high school was trained in history and geography and was literally concurrently learning the same course one lesson ahead of us. It's a disaster and it will never be fixed as long as the unions insist on paying STEM teachers the same as English teachers.

hdctambien 10y ago
There is no teacher union in Texas. Teachers in Texas are all paid the same based on years of service.
- aianus 10y ago
  > Teachers in Texas are all paid the same based on years of service. Do you have a source for this? The first thing I found on google was an article[0] which indicates teacher pay in Texas varies both with respect to location and subject taught (although admittedly not by much). [0] http://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/headlines/20150627-starting-teacher-pay-reaches-50000-in-many-north-texas-districts.ece http://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/headlines/20150627-...
  - hdctambien 10y ago
    Source: I'm a teacher in Texas. Here is the payscale for my district: https://docs.google.com/a/roundrockisd.org/file/d/0B13hERGxqDqDMEZ3ZDlnQWd6Yk0/edit https://docs.google.com/a/roundrockisd.org/file/d/0B13hERGxq... Each district determines its own payscale. That's no different than a union state. Teachers in Boston have a different payscale than teachers in Springfield, MA even though they are both part of the MTA. CTE Teachers (Career and Technical Education) do get a $2000 stipend but they also have an extra week of work plus extracurricular duties during the school year, so it's not just "extra money". There is no negotiating over salary or benefits. "Employees are paid in accordance with administrative guidelines and an established pay structure. The District’s compensation plan is reviewed by Human Resource Services each year to include comparisons with other districts, an analysis of market data, as well as cost of living information. The compensation plan is adjusted as data dictates and the budget allows. The Board of Trustees approves the compensation plan on an annual basis."[1] This is the Dallas pay schedule: http://www.nctq.org/docs/DISD_2015-2016_Salary_Handbook_FINAL.pdf http://www.nctq.org/docs/DISD_2015-2016_Salary_Handbook_FINA... (page 9) They do pay more in Dallas but there still is no negotiation over your salary. It looks like Dallas is replacing the "years of service" schedule with a pay-for-performance schedule (page 8) where your salary is adjusted up or down according to "performance, student achievement and student perception surveys."[2] That went into effect last year, I believe. I wouldn't be surprised to see that spread. [1] https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B13hERGxqDqDR19OcW1WRHpEd0U/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B13hERGxqDqDR19OcW1WRHpEd0U... (page 15) [2] http://tei.dallasisd.org/current-teachers-2/ http://tei.dallasisd.org/current-teachers-2/