6 ms·

Alcohol has two synergetic problems for drivers... it reduces reflexes and increases confidence, simultaneously. Less capable, and more aggressive. No wonder it

by beat 10y ago

Alcohol has two synergetic problems for drivers... it reduces reflexes and increases confidence, simultaneously. Less capable, and more aggressive. No wonder it's so awful for drivers. Marijuana doesn't significantly impair reflexes (as generations of musicians have shown). As for judgment, it tends to make users more cautious, not more aggressive. They're not trying to get around that car in front of them to blow through the used-to-be-yellow light - they're trying to make sure they remember where they're going...

mankyd 10y ago
> Marijuana doesn't significantly impair reflexes (as generations of musicians have shown). As an aside, is music really reliant on reflexes like this? I would assume that the beat of a song gives one plenty of forewarning as to when a melody might change. And that assumes that the rhythm of a melody doesn't put you in am altered, hypnotic state in other ways.
- Raphmedia 10y ago
  Depends. If you are randomly jamming with friends and someone is too stoned, he's going to have one hell of a time trying to keep up if you suddenly go from a slow repetitive bluesy riff to something more rock & roll.
- singlow 10y ago
  Jazz musicians and other improvisational music require fast reactions to other players.
  - mankyd 10y ago
    But I still wonder if that's not a different skill. Significant changes to the melody still come on the beat. The same can't be said to you driving down the road and the car ahead of you slams on the brakes. Talented musicians of all sort can learn how to improvise, but it's a learned skill, not simply "hey, different music means I do something different!" It's an acquired skill that means training your ear to create cohesive melodies.
    - zamalek 10y ago
      "Super High Me" (on Netflix) has a fair amount of experimentation around this - in one specific case the narrator/subject does a SAT and showed both augmented and diminished faculties in different disciplines. It's obviously far off from a scientific study but interesting none-the-less.
    - beat 10y ago
      As someone who both plays improvisational music and loves driving, they're very much the same feeling to me. It's a mixture of predictability and surprise. (And no, I don't drive intoxicated, I've had a total of two moving violations in 30+ years of driving, and I haven't been involved in an accident in 15 years - I'm a lot more daring with a guitar than with a car!) Musicians tend to either play high or play sober, consistently. I'm consistently sober. However, I've heard recordings of myself playing under the influence of marijuana, and cannot hear a difference. Alcohol, on the other hand, wrecks me musically. Beyond a three-beer limit, my playing becomes a litany of technical mistakes and bad ideas. I won't drink more than a beer while playing music, because it makes me suck.
- atom-morgan 10y ago
  > As an aside, is music really reliant on reflexes like this? Absolutely. The ability to recover from a mistake without anyone knowing.
  - carlob 10y ago
    Sometimes you aren't even consciously aware until after the fact, it feels like a direct ear-fingers connection without consciousness mediating it.
- emeraldd 10y ago
  The reflexes come in with being able to make complex and delicate movements required to actually use an instrument. It's kind of like touch typing but more so, for music to sound smooth those movements have to just "happen" rather than being explicitly thought out.
  - mankyd 10y ago
    Right, but that seems more like fine motor skills than reflexes, no?
- beat 10y ago
  The original association of marijuana and music is in jazz, and playing while stoned is still as much norm as exception among jazz musicians. Jazz is a form of structured improvisation. The raw music actually isn't that complex. What's complex is trying to make a new statement with that music on the fly, while simultaneously listening closely to other musicians in the band, who are making their own statements. Done right, it feels like two (or more) minds thinking as one. So yes, in addition to the physical reflexes needed to play difficult instruments gracefully, there's a lot of in-the-moment reflex in responding to the music and your fellow musicians.
  - sampo 10y ago
    > while simultaneously listening closely to other musicians in the band, who are making their own statements Ostensibly, yes. In practice, usually only one person at a time is playing a solo over a predetermined and repeating chord progression.
    - beat 10y ago
      Oh, no. That's not jazz at all! The soloist isn't the only person improvising. The rest of the band is supporting the soloist by improvising. The chords themselves aren't simple, static devices. There is plenty of room for expression and communication. A soloist needs to be on their toes, ready for the drummer to just rework the groove for laughs. A bass player needs to catch on to some rhythmic motif the soloist is using, and be ready to drive them home when the soloist does. Even within totally composed music, a lot of attention is required to keep timing in sync. Performing live music in a group setting requires a great deal of attention to what's going on outside your own mind.
zamalek 10y ago
I know a few people (myself included) who claim to get impaired by marijuana. While I don't drink and drive myself, some of that crowd do, but, they never smoke and drive. Not only is there the correlation as described in the article, I've also seen (p=0) much more honest self-evaluation on marijuana.
sageikosa 10y ago
Not really reflexes per se; as reflexes don't involve any higher brain function. One doesn't rely on reflexes for driving. Reaction time on the other hand is an entirely different matter...
ssully 10y ago
Your pot/music comparison to show reflexes being unaffected doesn't really work when the music industry has a long history of drug abuse of all kinds, including alcohol. It's not very hard to find stories or even videos of musicians being drunk and playing great shows. It is almost a cliche to have images of legendary musicians drinking from bottles of hard liquor while on stage.
- dfrey 10y ago
  Playing music also has very little to do with reacting to unexpected events.
  - beat 10y ago
    Depends on the kind of music you play.
rufus-overhead 10y ago
I disagree. Marijuana can impair reflexes significantly, at least for some individuals. My high school drivers education class (1979) had an electronic device used to measure brake reflex time. The device had simulated accelerator and brake pedals. A red lamp would light to signal the need to brake. I believe the average response time for most teens was around 250ms. I smoked pot nearly everyday during this period of my life. On the day our class was put to the brake response test I showed up high, as usual. I scored over 1 second on the response test. The instructor at first thought I was putting him on. He reset the device and had me try again. The response time was the same. I'll also admit that during this time I had episodes where I would "zone out" while driving high on pot. I would not remember a significant portion of the drive I had just undertaken. My read of the article referenced is that current measurement techniques for Marijuana do not accurately correlate with driver impairment. That's not the same thing as stating Marijuana impaired drivers are safer than ones intoxicated with alcohol.
- rjeli 10y ago
  I am curious, did smoking every day affect you permanently in any way? I have used cannabis recreationally a few times, and each time I feel slightly mentally impaired (slow thinking) for days afterward. It has completely scared me off from using it further.
  - beat 10y ago
    I smoked every day for years, quit ages ago. I don't feel any permanent impairment at all. Having known a lot of older daily smokers (decades) and older alcoholics, alcohol is a lot more damaging, both mentally and physically. I've never seen anyone die in their 40s from marijuana, but I've seen a few people eventually lose that battle with their liver or their kidneys from alcohol. Older alcoholics can be almost shockingingly stupid, too - far worse than young alcoholics.
  - rufus-overhead 10y ago
    I was a daily pot smoker for about three years (ages 15-18). My consumption gradually decreased over the next four years until I stopped completely. I couldn't say if pot was responsible for any cognitive impairment. I do have a poorer memory than most of my peers. I'd be quicker to blame my poor memory on the multiple concussions I've had over the years than on my pot consumption. Marijuana exacerbated my very introverted personality. It's possible my social development was crippled to some degree. I'm not good with the people. I do know a few individuals who have smoked pot regularly for decades. I don't see cannabis having had any negative effects on them or their families. They are intelligent, successful people in long term stable relationships.
dimino 10y ago
> Marijuana doesn't significantly impair reflexes (as generations of musicians have shown). What reflexes do you need while playing an instrument?
namlem 10y ago
I've driven high plenty of times in the past (not anymore though) and the issue is not one of reflexes or judgement, but attention. Being high makes you really easily distracted, and, in my experience, more likely to take your eyes off the road for longer periods of time. That's where the risk comes from.

by beat 10y ago

mankyd 10y ago

> Marijuana doesn't significantly impair reflexes (as generations of musicians have shown). As an aside, is music really reliant on reflexes like this? I would assume that the beat of a song gives one plenty of forewarning as to when a melody might change. And that assumes that the rhythm of a melody doesn't put you in am altered, hypnotic state in other ways.

Raphmedia 10y ago
Depends. If you are randomly jamming with friends and someone is too stoned, he's going to have one hell of a time trying to keep up if you suddenly go from a slow repetitive bluesy riff to something more rock & roll.
singlow 10y ago
Jazz musicians and other improvisational music require fast reactions to other players.
- mankyd 10y ago
  But I still wonder if that's not a different skill. Significant changes to the melody still come on the beat. The same can't be said to you driving down the road and the car ahead of you slams on the brakes. Talented musicians of all sort can learn how to improvise, but it's a learned skill, not simply "hey, different music means I do something different!" It's an acquired skill that means training your ear to create cohesive melodies.
  - zamalek 10y ago
    "Super High Me" (on Netflix) has a fair amount of experimentation around this - in one specific case the narrator/subject does a SAT and showed both augmented and diminished faculties in different disciplines. It's obviously far off from a scientific study but interesting none-the-less.
  - beat 10y ago
    As someone who both plays improvisational music and loves driving, they're very much the same feeling to me. It's a mixture of predictability and surprise. (And no, I don't drive intoxicated, I've had a total of two moving violations in 30+ years of driving, and I haven't been involved in an accident in 15 years - I'm a lot more daring with a guitar than with a car!) Musicians tend to either play high or play sober, consistently. I'm consistently sober. However, I've heard recordings of myself playing under the influence of marijuana, and cannot hear a difference. Alcohol, on the other hand, wrecks me musically. Beyond a three-beer limit, my playing becomes a litany of technical mistakes and bad ideas. I won't drink more than a beer while playing music, because it makes me suck.
atom-morgan 10y ago
> As an aside, is music really reliant on reflexes like this? Absolutely. The ability to recover from a mistake without anyone knowing.
- carlob 10y ago
  Sometimes you aren't even consciously aware until after the fact, it feels like a direct ear-fingers connection without consciousness mediating it.
emeraldd 10y ago
The reflexes come in with being able to make complex and delicate movements required to actually use an instrument. It's kind of like touch typing but more so, for music to sound smooth those movements have to just "happen" rather than being explicitly thought out.
- mankyd 10y ago
  Right, but that seems more like fine motor skills than reflexes, no?
beat 10y ago
The original association of marijuana and music is in jazz, and playing while stoned is still as much norm as exception among jazz musicians. Jazz is a form of structured improvisation. The raw music actually isn't that complex. What's complex is trying to make a new statement with that music on the fly, while simultaneously listening closely to other musicians in the band, who are making their own statements. Done right, it feels like two (or more) minds thinking as one. So yes, in addition to the physical reflexes needed to play difficult instruments gracefully, there's a lot of in-the-moment reflex in responding to the music and your fellow musicians.
- sampo 10y ago
  > while simultaneously listening closely to other musicians in the band, who are making their own statements Ostensibly, yes. In practice, usually only one person at a time is playing a solo over a predetermined and repeating chord progression.
  - beat 10y ago
    Oh, no. That's not jazz at all! The soloist isn't the only person improvising. The rest of the band is supporting the soloist by improvising. The chords themselves aren't simple, static devices. There is plenty of room for expression and communication. A soloist needs to be on their toes, ready for the drummer to just rework the groove for laughs. A bass player needs to catch on to some rhythmic motif the soloist is using, and be ready to drive them home when the soloist does. Even within totally composed music, a lot of attention is required to keep timing in sync. Performing live music in a group setting requires a great deal of attention to what's going on outside your own mind.

zamalek 10y ago

I know a few people (myself included) who claim to get impaired by marijuana. While I don't drink and drive myself, some of that crowd do, but, they never smoke and drive. Not only is there the correlation as described in the article, I've also seen (p=0) much more honest self-evaluation on marijuana.

sageikosa 10y ago

Not really reflexes per se; as reflexes don't involve any higher brain function. One doesn't rely on reflexes for driving. Reaction time on the other hand is an entirely different matter...

ssully 10y ago

Your pot/music comparison to show reflexes being unaffected doesn't really work when the music industry has a long history of drug abuse of all kinds, including alcohol. It's not very hard to find stories or even videos of musicians being drunk and playing great shows. It is almost a cliche to have images of legendary musicians drinking from bottles of hard liquor while on stage.

dfrey 10y ago
Playing music also has very little to do with reacting to unexpected events.
- beat 10y ago
  Depends on the kind of music you play.

rufus-overhead 10y ago

I disagree. Marijuana can impair reflexes significantly, at least for some individuals. My high school drivers education class (1979) had an electronic device used to measure brake reflex time. The device had simulated accelerator and brake pedals. A red lamp would light to signal the need to brake. I believe the average response time for most teens was around 250ms. I smoked pot nearly everyday during this period of my life. On the day our class was put to the brake response test I showed up high, as usual. I scored over 1 second on the response test. The instructor at first thought I was putting him on. He reset the device and had me try again. The response time was the same. I'll also admit that during this time I had episodes where I would "zone out" while driving high on pot. I would not remember a significant portion of the drive I had just undertaken. My read of the article referenced is that current measurement techniques for Marijuana do not accurately correlate with driver impairment. That's not the same thing as stating Marijuana impaired drivers are safer than ones intoxicated with alcohol.

rjeli 10y ago
I am curious, did smoking every day affect you permanently in any way? I have used cannabis recreationally a few times, and each time I feel slightly mentally impaired (slow thinking) for days afterward. It has completely scared me off from using it further.
- beat 10y ago
  I smoked every day for years, quit ages ago. I don't feel any permanent impairment at all. Having known a lot of older daily smokers (decades) and older alcoholics, alcohol is a lot more damaging, both mentally and physically. I've never seen anyone die in their 40s from marijuana, but I've seen a few people eventually lose that battle with their liver or their kidneys from alcohol. Older alcoholics can be almost shockingingly stupid, too - far worse than young alcoholics.
- rufus-overhead 10y ago
  I was a daily pot smoker for about three years (ages 15-18). My consumption gradually decreased over the next four years until I stopped completely. I couldn't say if pot was responsible for any cognitive impairment. I do have a poorer memory than most of my peers. I'd be quicker to blame my poor memory on the multiple concussions I've had over the years than on my pot consumption. Marijuana exacerbated my very introverted personality. It's possible my social development was crippled to some degree. I'm not good with the people. I do know a few individuals who have smoked pot regularly for decades. I don't see cannabis having had any negative effects on them or their families. They are intelligent, successful people in long term stable relationships.

dimino 10y ago

> Marijuana doesn't significantly impair reflexes (as generations of musicians have shown). What reflexes do you need while playing an instrument?

namlem 10y ago

I've driven high plenty of times in the past (not anymore though) and the issue is not one of reflexes or judgement, but attention. Being high makes you really easily distracted, and, in my experience, more likely to take your eyes off the road for longer periods of time. That's where the risk comes from.