22 ms·

Both parents and wife are teachers, all are at odds with their unions, but are still forced to pay dues to an organization they'd prefer not speak on their beha

Both parents and wife are teachers, all are at odds with their unions, but are still forced to pay dues to an organization they'd prefer not speak on their behalf. I don't see much of a need for unions anymore (note: anymore - they obviously hold a very important place in US history) as long as the government is actively involved and enforcing things like OSHA. I am also strongly for universal healthcare and maternity leave, to name a couple issues which would solve a lot of what unions are in place for.

vidarh 10y ago
> I don't see much of a need for unions anymore I find this bizarre to hear, given that the US has pretty much the weakest protections for workers of any developed country.
- pc86 10y ago
  For the record, if this were any internet discussion board other than HN, most people would read your comment as some form of "That's weird, you're weird, the US blows how could you not know that?" Not saying that's what you meant but some people here probably take it that way. That being said, most people in the US aren't clamoring for a lot of the "protections" you'll find in western Europe.
  - uola 10y ago
    Yet, almost every week there's someone writing online "this happened to me what do I do?". I mainly use my union for unemployment insurance, salary statistics, contract negotiation and conflict resolution. It's more like having a human resources department on your side than anything else. It's not "protections" that makes the difference, at least not for highly skilled workers, it's the knowledge and the bargaining power. And I somewhat doubt that US people don't want those "protections" because they are highly sought after when they are instead called "perks".
  - vidarh 10y ago
    > That being said, most people in the US aren't clamoring for a lot of the "protections" you'll find in western Europe. I don't think most people in the US has any concept of the kind of protections you get in most of western Europe being possible.
    - serge2k 10y ago
      A large number have been conditioned to think of it as evil/unworkable socialism.
- dkopi 10y ago
  The biggest protection a worker has is his ability to quit and find another employer. All other "protections" usually end up costing you someway or another. Mandatory vacation days are converted to lower salaries. Maternity leave makes it more difficult for young married women to find a job. Mandatory Insurances and Pensions are simply calculated in to the "cost of employment", reducing the actual salary. Not being able to fire a worker means much higher hiring standards, and make it a lot more difficult for inexperienced workers to find a job.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    All true, every protection has a cost. However its also true that the most vulnerable workers suffer grievously. Some protections are needed.
  - masklinn 10y ago
    > The biggest protection a worker has is his ability to quit and find another employer. That's only ever a protection as long as your skills are valued and in high demand. Which means it's only a temporary protection, and only for a minority of the population. > All other "protections" usually end up costing you someway or another. The "other" is misplaced here, if all you have is the ability to quit, you have no stability[0], you have limited bargaining power (and are pretty systematically in a position of weakness), and the cooperative incentives with coworkers are very different, and arguably lower. [0] and things get worse if you own property (now your "protection" is tied to property markets), a partner (now your "protection" may be tied to fucking them over) or dependents
    - segmondy 10y ago
      > That's only ever a protection as long as your skills are valued and in high demand. Which means it's only a temporary protection, and only for a minority of the population. What's wrong with that? If your skills are not valued or in high demand, you don't deserve any protection. Retool and equip yourself with valuable and skills that are in demand. Should I be protected because I dug my head deep into MSDOS or APL and refused to catch up to the modern day ubiquitous Unix systems and C++?
- tn13 10y ago
  And that is a good thing for economy in general. That is reason why American companies are able to innovate at faster rate, offshore work to cheaper countries and give better services to consumers. Because of lack of unions companies can hire people as they need and fire when they dont need which helps more people get jobs.
jtbigwoo 10y ago
You want to hear an insane story about why we need teachers' unions? This neighbor of mine was a teacher for 45 years, starting back in the 1940's. She found her first job in a little town and found a nice apartment for $45/month. The school superintendent heard about it. He called her and told her she had to rent an attic with another new teacher because there's a widow in town whose only source of income was renting to teachers. If she refused to live there, they'd fire her. The attic cost $100/month ($50 each) even though it was smaller than the apartment.
- themartorana 10y ago
  Maybe you missed the part where I said unions did serve an important part in US history. But this would never happen now (and if it did, the outrage would be enormous).

vidarh 10y ago

> I don't see much of a need for unions anymore I find this bizarre to hear, given that the US has pretty much the weakest protections for workers of any developed country.

pc86 10y ago
For the record, if this were any internet discussion board other than HN, most people would read your comment as some form of "That's weird, you're weird, the US blows how could you not know that?" Not saying that's what you meant but some people here probably take it that way. That being said, most people in the US aren't clamoring for a lot of the "protections" you'll find in western Europe.
- uola 10y ago
  Yet, almost every week there's someone writing online "this happened to me what do I do?". I mainly use my union for unemployment insurance, salary statistics, contract negotiation and conflict resolution. It's more like having a human resources department on your side than anything else. It's not "protections" that makes the difference, at least not for highly skilled workers, it's the knowledge and the bargaining power. And I somewhat doubt that US people don't want those "protections" because they are highly sought after when they are instead called "perks".
- vidarh 10y ago
  > That being said, most people in the US aren't clamoring for a lot of the "protections" you'll find in western Europe. I don't think most people in the US has any concept of the kind of protections you get in most of western Europe being possible.
  - serge2k 10y ago
    A large number have been conditioned to think of it as evil/unworkable socialism.
dkopi 10y ago
The biggest protection a worker has is his ability to quit and find another employer. All other "protections" usually end up costing you someway or another. Mandatory vacation days are converted to lower salaries. Maternity leave makes it more difficult for young married women to find a job. Mandatory Insurances and Pensions are simply calculated in to the "cost of employment", reducing the actual salary. Not being able to fire a worker means much higher hiring standards, and make it a lot more difficult for inexperienced workers to find a job.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  All true, every protection has a cost. However its also true that the most vulnerable workers suffer grievously. Some protections are needed.
- masklinn 10y ago
  > The biggest protection a worker has is his ability to quit and find another employer. That's only ever a protection as long as your skills are valued and in high demand. Which means it's only a temporary protection, and only for a minority of the population. > All other "protections" usually end up costing you someway or another. The "other" is misplaced here, if all you have is the ability to quit, you have no stability[0], you have limited bargaining power (and are pretty systematically in a position of weakness), and the cooperative incentives with coworkers are very different, and arguably lower. [0] and things get worse if you own property (now your "protection" is tied to property markets), a partner (now your "protection" may be tied to fucking them over) or dependents
  - segmondy 10y ago
    > That's only ever a protection as long as your skills are valued and in high demand. Which means it's only a temporary protection, and only for a minority of the population. What's wrong with that? If your skills are not valued or in high demand, you don't deserve any protection. Retool and equip yourself with valuable and skills that are in demand. Should I be protected because I dug my head deep into MSDOS or APL and refused to catch up to the modern day ubiquitous Unix systems and C++?
tn13 10y ago
And that is a good thing for economy in general. That is reason why American companies are able to innovate at faster rate, offshore work to cheaper countries and give better services to consumers. Because of lack of unions companies can hire people as they need and fire when they dont need which helps more people get jobs.

jtbigwoo 10y ago

You want to hear an insane story about why we need teachers' unions? This neighbor of mine was a teacher for 45 years, starting back in the 1940's. She found her first job in a little town and found a nice apartment for $45/month. The school superintendent heard about it. He called her and told her she had to rent an attic with another new teacher because there's a widow in town whose only source of income was renting to teachers. If she refused to live there, they'd fire her. The attic cost $100/month ($50 each) even though it was smaller than the apartment.

themartorana 10y ago
Maybe you missed the part where I said unions did serve an important part in US history. But this would never happen now (and if it did, the outrage would be enormous).