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Because GCHQ are having a PR drive and they have enough accounts here to up-vote it to the front page?

saganus 10y ago
Would it really be a good investment for GCHQ to keep enough sockpuppet accounts on HN to upvote something like this to the front page? What would they gain? And if they really have an eye on HN, that would probably mean that NSA as well. If that is true, would it inhibit a community like HN to self-censor?
- branchless 10y ago
  There have been leaks from GCHQ on influencing internet forums. https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ What would they gain? Look at the slides, these are not normal people all working in a large circular building. What would Kennedy have gained from the Bay of Pigs crisis had it gone the other way? Group think is it's own force. Those slides are pretty disturbing IMHO as is pretty-much everything I've ever seen out of that org.
  - saganus 10y ago
    Damn. I was not aware of this. I mean I was aware that spooks were aware of forums and watching them and such, but I never thought that a forum like HN would be a target for them. But I guess that after thinking for a bit HN could definitely be a valuable target. It's just hard for me to accept that a community I visit regularly could be under the influence of these organizations. Scary thoughts.
- schoen 10y ago
  > What would they gain? Tech people being more willing to work there, being less opposed to their friends working there, being less likely to tell legislators that GCHQ is an embarrassment to their country or a threat to its values or future freedom. Greater likelihood of tech companies being willing to cooperate with GCHQ requests or inquiries (whether for counterintelligence or espionage purposes). Edit: Academic researchers being more willing to take research funding from GCHQ or collaborate with GCHQ on research projects.
- Jugurtha 10y ago
  You wouldn't want to inhibit a community like HN, that would be useless.. but if you could shape it or get it to like you, that would be monumental. Let's look at it from different scales.. Think on a very small scale: how many hugely successful companies were on YC combinator? A lot. Companies like Dropbox, Airbnb, etc. Companies that are now important. Imagine if you could influence their founders right at the beginning of their journey.. Where people spend their night and what files they store? That's great information to have. Think on a slightly bigger scale: how many applied to YC? A whole lot more. What would you get if you influence those? How many are on HN but haven't applied to YC (i.e: read and comment or just read): a lot, lot more.. Where are they? Could be anywhere. They could speak any language, be of any color, worship any deity.. They could be a teenager or a senior VP, an engineer or an artist. They could get any access to anyone, they could either know someone or know someone who knows someone. They all are somewhat technically literate and can influence people around them. Right there, my friend, is the prime recruiting Tree of Knowledge for any Intelligence Officer in the world. Imagine if you could develop assets everywhere.. Or better yet, imagine if you can shape the image such a great demographic has about you to the point they look at you like a normal tech company: suddenly, you've reframed the interaction and took the controversy/guilt/moral dilemma out of it. They won't consider themselves assets since you're just like Google or Dropbox.. they won't think they're spying on their countries, it will just be filing a vulnerability report. You could also have advocates that relay your thoughts on an issue about something: it's like having millions of megaphones. Or at least don't go hardcore on you.. Imagine all the communities each HN member is part of, and the reach this gives you.. Imagine all the places they access HN from.. Just imagine the possibilities if you get people that smart and dispersed to like and respect you.
  - saganus 10y ago
    I see the point. Still scares the hell out of me. Privacy is a very strange thing. Even though I know that what I comment in online forums like HN is public for all intents and purposes it sends chills down my spine to think that we as a community could be shaped as you say. And if they are able to do so, how do they do it? I mean, besides the obvious tools like sockpuppet accounts and such, how do you build a strategy to steer an online community? what kind of psychological tools do you need to employ? Obviously psyops and humint people have decades of research on public manipulation, but still... how do you measure success? how do you keep it out of the participants' attention in a community that is full of educated (on these issues) people, or at least more educated than the average Joe I would hope?
dang 10y ago
I suspect it's more the novelty of a spy agency publishing an article on something people here know a lot about.

Would it really be a good investment for GCHQ to keep enough sockpuppet accounts on HN to upvote something like this to the front page? What would they gain? And if they really have an eye on HN, that would probably mean that NSA as well. If that is true, would it inhibit a community like HN to self-censor?

branchless 10y ago
There have been leaks from GCHQ on influencing internet forums. https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ What would they gain? Look at the slides, these are not normal people all working in a large circular building. What would Kennedy have gained from the Bay of Pigs crisis had it gone the other way? Group think is it's own force. Those slides are pretty disturbing IMHO as is pretty-much everything I've ever seen out of that org.
- saganus 10y ago
  Damn. I was not aware of this. I mean I was aware that spooks were aware of forums and watching them and such, but I never thought that a forum like HN would be a target for them. But I guess that after thinking for a bit HN could definitely be a valuable target. It's just hard for me to accept that a community I visit regularly could be under the influence of these organizations. Scary thoughts.
schoen 10y ago
> What would they gain? Tech people being more willing to work there, being less opposed to their friends working there, being less likely to tell legislators that GCHQ is an embarrassment to their country or a threat to its values or future freedom. Greater likelihood of tech companies being willing to cooperate with GCHQ requests or inquiries (whether for counterintelligence or espionage purposes). Edit: Academic researchers being more willing to take research funding from GCHQ or collaborate with GCHQ on research projects.
Jugurtha 10y ago
You wouldn't want to inhibit a community like HN, that would be useless.. but if you could shape it or get it to like you, that would be monumental. Let's look at it from different scales.. Think on a very small scale: how many hugely successful companies were on YC combinator? A lot. Companies like Dropbox, Airbnb, etc. Companies that are now important. Imagine if you could influence their founders right at the beginning of their journey.. Where people spend their night and what files they store? That's great information to have. Think on a slightly bigger scale: how many applied to YC? A whole lot more. What would you get if you influence those? How many are on HN but haven't applied to YC (i.e: read and comment or just read): a lot, lot more.. Where are they? Could be anywhere. They could speak any language, be of any color, worship any deity.. They could be a teenager or a senior VP, an engineer or an artist. They could get any access to anyone, they could either know someone or know someone who knows someone. They all are somewhat technically literate and can influence people around them. Right there, my friend, is the prime recruiting Tree of Knowledge for any Intelligence Officer in the world. Imagine if you could develop assets everywhere.. Or better yet, imagine if you can shape the image such a great demographic has about you to the point they look at you like a normal tech company: suddenly, you've reframed the interaction and took the controversy/guilt/moral dilemma out of it. They won't consider themselves assets since you're just like Google or Dropbox.. they won't think they're spying on their countries, it will just be filing a vulnerability report. You could also have advocates that relay your thoughts on an issue about something: it's like having millions of megaphones. Or at least don't go hardcore on you.. Imagine all the communities each HN member is part of, and the reach this gives you.. Imagine all the places they access HN from.. Just imagine the possibilities if you get people that smart and dispersed to like and respect you.
- saganus 10y ago
  I see the point. Still scares the hell out of me. Privacy is a very strange thing. Even though I know that what I comment in online forums like HN is public for all intents and purposes it sends chills down my spine to think that we as a community could be shaped as you say. And if they are able to do so, how do they do it? I mean, besides the obvious tools like sockpuppet accounts and such, how do you build a strategy to steer an online community? what kind of psychological tools do you need to employ? Obviously psyops and humint people have decades of research on public manipulation, but still... how do you measure success? how do you keep it out of the participants' attention in a community that is full of educated (on these issues) people, or at least more educated than the average Joe I would hope?

dang 10y ago

I suspect it's more the novelty of a spy agency publishing an article on something people here know a lot about.