6 ms·

Sometime ago I came up with the formulation that "you're creepy" means "you're too focused on something that you want from me". It doesn't cover all the cases,

Sometime ago I came up with the formulation that "you're creepy" means "you're too focused on something that you want from me". It doesn't cover all the cases, but it gives a hint on how to avoid appearing creepy.

jgw 10y ago
I think that's true. I think I'd formulate it more broadly as, "In our interaction, I'm vaguely aware that there's some sort of subtext that I don't understand, but is very important to you, or is even your main objective." In the study, I'm glad that clowns are finally being called out!
sheepleherd 10y ago
There is a large class of "creepy" which covers men creeping on women. In that case your formulation is correct, but I would reword it as "you're too focused on something you want, my ass and cleavage for instance, that I am locked in competition with other young women to attract some cute guys--that's why we've left left them only scantily and barely clad--but that guy is not you and your leers make me feel self conscious." Another big class of creepy which works in both gender directions but because men are more threatening (for size if no other reason like testosterone) perhaps seems more one way is, "you seem or are desperate for friendship so you over interpret every little thing I do as a genuine or encouraging bond between us and you overdo your reactions" But I'm not sure what else people might want that would fall into the same category. Salespeople, for instance, can seem "oily" but not usually creepy.
- matt4077 10y ago
  You think there's never been a women without cleavage being stalked? You think it's women's fault when they get 'Hey MILF,wanna meet after work?' comments?
  - sheepleherd 10y ago
    First, I was responding not to either the study in question, nor to a question of harassment or stalking, I was trying to make sense of the formulation the PP made about somebody wanting something from somebody to see if I could square it with my experience in the world; I qualified what I said with "for instance", not "for all instances" In terms of what I said, I'm actually not saying anything is anybody's "fault" nor that a transgression had transpired. I'm saying people interact as they have always done through history and some interactions are termed creepy by some of the parties. I was actually allowing for a sexually alluring woman to feel creeped by some attention but not all attention rather than saying it was her fault or that all interactions fit this mold. Of course individuals can be creepier than avg and individuals can be creeped more than avg, and if you get far enough from average it becomes excessive. I was simply testing the formulation that the PP suggested. There are people with socialization issues (psychiatric) such that they frequently get termed creepy, and there are people who more frequently experience the feeling of being "creeped out". It's worthy of study. In addition to being creeped out, other people such as yourself more frequently can experience feeling "shocked, shocked" and outraged.
  - dang 10y ago
    Please don't take an uncharitable interpretation of someone else's comment and then attack them. That's two steps in the wrong direction.
- nailer 10y ago
  My definition is related to yours, but is closer to the articles. FTA: > It is our belief that creepiness is anxiety aroused by the ambiguity of whether there is something to fear or not You mentioned: > you're too focused on something you want, my ass and cleavage for instance You can be focused on ass and cleavage, but not be creepy: eg, if you're honest and open that that's what you're looking for, and not trying to hide or be something you're not. Creepiness occurs where that ambiguity exists: there's a discrepancy between someones evident intent and actions. - If someone's trying to get you away from your friends, with a 'cool thing you need to see', but they clearly want to make out, it's creepy. - If they say 'I think we should go somewhere and make out' it's less so. A lot of creepiness comes from shy men who are afraid of rejection, other comes from shy men that understand, eg, that isolation makes people more likely to make out, but try and use subterfuge to make that happen.
  - sheepleherd 10y ago
    yes, as I said in my other response to somebody else, I was not trying to explain the study, I was trying to test out the PP's suggestion about "somebody wanting something from somebody"
  - JadeNB 10y ago
    > You can be focused on ass and cleavage, but not be creepy: eg, if you're honest and open that that's what you're looking for, and not trying to hide or be something you're not. I suppose that I believe the first part of your sentence, but I don't think that the second elaborates on it sufficiently. A guy who wore a sign saying "I am focussed on ass and cleavage!" and stared at those attributes of all women in the vicinity would, I think, still be creepy. (Maybe I am just using the word in a different sense.) I think that it is important to be open and honest about your intentions, but also to be willing to respect others' right to reject those intentions.
    - nailer 10y ago
      Oh yeah, totally. I think respecting other people is a given, but then again, maybe common sense isn't that common. I'm talking about someone who discusses making out after previous escalations have been welcomed.
- kaitai 10y ago
  I think it's interesting that you phrase things the way you do in your first paragraph. When I moved to California for college from a cold place, I was young and female. (Still female, less young now). Sometimes in southern California it gets very hot. A logical response to heat if you want to be outside is to wear a tank top. So sometimes I would wear a tank top. This would be interpreted as being "locked in competition with other young women to attract some cute guys" -- which was creepy to me, because it's putting a whole layer of sexual intent on wearing a tank top when it's 100 degrees that was not present in the clothing choice. This sexualized interpretation by random guys did increase the likelihood of encounters with high creepiness factors as described in the article. It is really hard to find a tank top that doesn't show cleavage if you are a certain shape. Tank tops are not always about a struggle for cute young men: these boobs are stuck to the front of me no matter what I'm thinking or doing, and their presence is not a sign of interest. To assume otherwise causes creepiness.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - vithlani 10y ago
    Thank you for posting this. This is exactly how I felt about my "sexualised interpretation" towards a lady in a similar situation -- I felt it was wrong on my part and I felt incredibly guilty about it and that I was a creep. And then we found out that she was doing it deliberately: in chill winter she would wear an overcoat which came off in the lecture hall to reveal shorts and a tank top. Let us not even mention the labs. Also, She had begun a relationship with a friend of mine just so that he could do her assignments for her and generally be her flunky. When he realized this was her purpose, he managed to get out of it. So she moved on to a much, much smarter dude who had no problem with the nature of the relationship and openly took advantage of it. My friend went through mental trauma, which is totally understandable -- nerds do not EVER get to go out with women of this caliber, to us all it was some kind of miracle. As time passed, it emerged that she was also using the same approach on some profs. Of course she passed with flying grades and I am certain she is now vice-president of something or the other and having an increasingly comfortable life. This is not meant it any way as an accusation against any particular sex or stereotype. In this sort of a situation is there a measurement of creepiness that applies? Who is the creep?
draw_down 10y ago
People can decide that someone 20 ft away from them is "creepy" without ever even interacting. I think it's much more broad, closer to "you make me uncomfortable in a way I choose not to analyze". It can sometimes be a really unfair reaction to a totally innocuous person's appearance, sadly.
- CocaKoala 10y ago
  What's unfair about that reaction? edit: I'm legitimately asking. One of the things which stuck with me after reading "The Gift of Fear" is that people rarely get 'weird feelings' for no reason. If you're not interacting with somebody and they're still creeping you out, that's a sign that something is wrong. Pay attention to that feeling and get out of that situation, even if it means being rude. Once you're out of that situation, you can certainly take time to think about "wait, why did that guy creep me out so much?". Maybe once you reflect on it, you'll say "He was way too fixated on that one woman struggling to put her groceries in the trunk of her car" or "He came up behind me on the stairs, but I never heard the door of the apartment building open after I came in, and that means he was probably waiting inside for me to pass him". Maybe you'll realize "oh, I was just being silly and there wasn't anything weird going on at all". But think about it. What's the worst case scenario of paying attention to that feeling? You rudely brushed off somebody you don't know, didn't interact with, and will never see again. It's a bummer for them, and maybe they'll go home and tell their significant other a story about this one jerk they bumped into in the stairway today. What's the worst case of ignoring that feeling because you don't want to be rude, or you think you're being unfair? The worst case is that you will get killed. The calculus on that is pretty easy for me.
  - jboles 10y ago
    Besides being paranoid/insecure, it is placing responsibility for your own negative emotions on, in this example, an innocuous stranger. Only you are responsible for your own happiness. There's also attractiveness as an input factor, at least if the person branding someone 'creepy' is shallow or superficial.
wwweston 10y ago
That's an interesting formulation. It sounds like a sort of uncanny valley of being "valued." I'm a little wary of the term -- I think it's over deployed as a form of social violence -- but there's no denying that what you're describing happens and is pretty uncomfortable.
andrewstuart2 10y ago
I think the key word in your definition is "too" but I'd add more specificity to it: "you want something from me, which I'm not interested in giving you, and you're not reacting to my negative cues by backing off." This may still be too general, as there are plenty of scenarios where this would connote "annoying" rather than "creepy," like with a persistent salesperson. Perhaps it could be more accurate yet by adding "and I'm worried you may try to take it against my will, and have a chance of succeeding." to the end. That would cover, for example, noticing some masked figure sneaking toward your house with a crowbar.
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  That's just persistence though. Creepiness takes it to another level: it implies discomfort and fear/anxiety for one's safety/wellbeing. Stalkers are creepy. Overeager salespeople aren't.
  - andrewstuart2 10y ago
    Right, that's exactly what I'm saying with the second point I made. EDIT: Although, I just realized I forgot to take out an unfinished sentence that was seemingly contradictory.
  - rue 10y ago
    Don’t be persistent. Just don’t.
jandrese 10y ago
I thought it was more "That person or thing is interested in me and I am not interested in, or even disgusted by, them." One of the takeways is that the line between "cute flirting" and "creepy stalking" is if the other person is interested in you.
- matt4077 10y ago
  Or, maybe, it's the suitor's ability to recognize rejection.
  - jandrese 10y ago
    That would certainly be part of it. Rejecting being the signalling mechanism that the second party uses to communicate their lack of interest to the first party.
  - kaitai 10y ago
    Recognize rejection, and then not retaliate. A flirter who flirts with me and makes it clear it's all in good fun, there's no pressure for more, if I need to go catch a bus I'm not an unfeeling b*^%$, if I don't feel like smiling/flirting it's ok; a flirter who makes me feel confident he's not going to call me names in public or follow me around for a week due to a pleasant interaction -- not creepy. A flirter who keeps pressing on despite signs of discomfort, who doesn't leave me alone, who tries to imply I owe him something, who starts making grand plans for the future based on a few sentences interaction, who calls me names if I have to catch the bus -- creepy. These are all a little unpredictable (smiling conversation at a bar with a stranger, "Gotta go -- nice to chat!", sudden eruption of debasing language, for instance) as well as having high scores for other creepy factors identified in the paper. A little test for yourself: flirt for enjoyment and then walk away with no expectation of ever talking to the person again. Can you do it? Practiced non-creepy flirters can do this well.
- mcv 10y ago
  It's not just that. It's continuing despite the other party not being interested. Flirting is a two-way street.
Tycho 10y ago
I think creepyness has to relate to some perceived threat. Example: in horror films, children can be super creepy, because there is a hint of supernatural threat. But in real life? Never, because they pose no threat. Too focussed on something is only a symptom, the real feeling comes from fear that the individual is unstable or will go to extreme lengths to get what they seem to want. To avoid appearing creepy you need to understand what sort of fears people might have. The exact same interaction may be 10x creepier in an empty car park than a busy office floor. Sometimes the fears may be unwarranted or unfair, of course.

jgw 10y ago

I think that's true. I think I'd formulate it more broadly as, "In our interaction, I'm vaguely aware that there's some sort of subtext that I don't understand, but is very important to you, or is even your main objective." In the study, I'm glad that clowns are finally being called out!

sheepleherd 10y ago

There is a large class of "creepy" which covers men creeping on women. In that case your formulation is correct, but I would reword it as "you're too focused on something you want, my ass and cleavage for instance, that I am locked in competition with other young women to attract some cute guys--that's why we've left left them only scantily and barely clad--but that guy is not you and your leers make me feel self conscious." Another big class of creepy which works in both gender directions but because men are more threatening (for size if no other reason like testosterone) perhaps seems more one way is, "you seem or are desperate for friendship so you over interpret every little thing I do as a genuine or encouraging bond between us and you overdo your reactions" But I'm not sure what else people might want that would fall into the same category. Salespeople, for instance, can seem "oily" but not usually creepy.

matt4077 10y ago
You think there's never been a women without cleavage being stalked? You think it's women's fault when they get 'Hey MILF,wanna meet after work?' comments?
- sheepleherd 10y ago
  First, I was responding not to either the study in question, nor to a question of harassment or stalking, I was trying to make sense of the formulation the PP made about somebody wanting something from somebody to see if I could square it with my experience in the world; I qualified what I said with "for instance", not "for all instances" In terms of what I said, I'm actually not saying anything is anybody's "fault" nor that a transgression had transpired. I'm saying people interact as they have always done through history and some interactions are termed creepy by some of the parties. I was actually allowing for a sexually alluring woman to feel creeped by some attention but not all attention rather than saying it was her fault or that all interactions fit this mold. Of course individuals can be creepier than avg and individuals can be creeped more than avg, and if you get far enough from average it becomes excessive. I was simply testing the formulation that the PP suggested. There are people with socialization issues (psychiatric) such that they frequently get termed creepy, and there are people who more frequently experience the feeling of being "creeped out". It's worthy of study. In addition to being creeped out, other people such as yourself more frequently can experience feeling "shocked, shocked" and outraged.
- dang 10y ago
  Please don't take an uncharitable interpretation of someone else's comment and then attack them. That's two steps in the wrong direction.
nailer 10y ago
My definition is related to yours, but is closer to the articles. FTA: > It is our belief that creepiness is anxiety aroused by the ambiguity of whether there is something to fear or not You mentioned: > you're too focused on something you want, my ass and cleavage for instance You can be focused on ass and cleavage, but not be creepy: eg, if you're honest and open that that's what you're looking for, and not trying to hide or be something you're not. Creepiness occurs where that ambiguity exists: there's a discrepancy between someones evident intent and actions. - If someone's trying to get you away from your friends, with a 'cool thing you need to see', but they clearly want to make out, it's creepy. - If they say 'I think we should go somewhere and make out' it's less so. A lot of creepiness comes from shy men who are afraid of rejection, other comes from shy men that understand, eg, that isolation makes people more likely to make out, but try and use subterfuge to make that happen.
- sheepleherd 10y ago
  yes, as I said in my other response to somebody else, I was not trying to explain the study, I was trying to test out the PP's suggestion about "somebody wanting something from somebody"
- JadeNB 10y ago
  > You can be focused on ass and cleavage, but not be creepy: eg, if you're honest and open that that's what you're looking for, and not trying to hide or be something you're not. I suppose that I believe the first part of your sentence, but I don't think that the second elaborates on it sufficiently. A guy who wore a sign saying "I am focussed on ass and cleavage!" and stared at those attributes of all women in the vicinity would, I think, still be creepy. (Maybe I am just using the word in a different sense.) I think that it is important to be open and honest about your intentions, but also to be willing to respect others' right to reject those intentions.
  - nailer 10y ago
    Oh yeah, totally. I think respecting other people is a given, but then again, maybe common sense isn't that common. I'm talking about someone who discusses making out after previous escalations have been welcomed.
kaitai 10y ago
I think it's interesting that you phrase things the way you do in your first paragraph. When I moved to California for college from a cold place, I was young and female. (Still female, less young now). Sometimes in southern California it gets very hot. A logical response to heat if you want to be outside is to wear a tank top. So sometimes I would wear a tank top. This would be interpreted as being "locked in competition with other young women to attract some cute guys" -- which was creepy to me, because it's putting a whole layer of sexual intent on wearing a tank top when it's 100 degrees that was not present in the clothing choice. This sexualized interpretation by random guys did increase the likelihood of encounters with high creepiness factors as described in the article. It is really hard to find a tank top that doesn't show cleavage if you are a certain shape. Tank tops are not always about a struggle for cute young men: these boobs are stuck to the front of me no matter what I'm thinking or doing, and their presence is not a sign of interest. To assume otherwise causes creepiness.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- vithlani 10y ago
  Thank you for posting this. This is exactly how I felt about my "sexualised interpretation" towards a lady in a similar situation -- I felt it was wrong on my part and I felt incredibly guilty about it and that I was a creep. And then we found out that she was doing it deliberately: in chill winter she would wear an overcoat which came off in the lecture hall to reveal shorts and a tank top. Let us not even mention the labs. Also, She had begun a relationship with a friend of mine just so that he could do her assignments for her and generally be her flunky. When he realized this was her purpose, he managed to get out of it. So she moved on to a much, much smarter dude who had no problem with the nature of the relationship and openly took advantage of it. My friend went through mental trauma, which is totally understandable -- nerds do not EVER get to go out with women of this caliber, to us all it was some kind of miracle. As time passed, it emerged that she was also using the same approach on some profs. Of course she passed with flying grades and I am certain she is now vice-president of something or the other and having an increasingly comfortable life. This is not meant it any way as an accusation against any particular sex or stereotype. In this sort of a situation is there a measurement of creepiness that applies? Who is the creep?

draw_down 10y ago

People can decide that someone 20 ft away from them is "creepy" without ever even interacting. I think it's much more broad, closer to "you make me uncomfortable in a way I choose not to analyze". It can sometimes be a really unfair reaction to a totally innocuous person's appearance, sadly.

CocaKoala 10y ago
What's unfair about that reaction? edit: I'm legitimately asking. One of the things which stuck with me after reading "The Gift of Fear" is that people rarely get 'weird feelings' for no reason. If you're not interacting with somebody and they're still creeping you out, that's a sign that something is wrong. Pay attention to that feeling and get out of that situation, even if it means being rude. Once you're out of that situation, you can certainly take time to think about "wait, why did that guy creep me out so much?". Maybe once you reflect on it, you'll say "He was way too fixated on that one woman struggling to put her groceries in the trunk of her car" or "He came up behind me on the stairs, but I never heard the door of the apartment building open after I came in, and that means he was probably waiting inside for me to pass him". Maybe you'll realize "oh, I was just being silly and there wasn't anything weird going on at all". But think about it. What's the worst case scenario of paying attention to that feeling? You rudely brushed off somebody you don't know, didn't interact with, and will never see again. It's a bummer for them, and maybe they'll go home and tell their significant other a story about this one jerk they bumped into in the stairway today. What's the worst case of ignoring that feeling because you don't want to be rude, or you think you're being unfair? The worst case is that you will get killed. The calculus on that is pretty easy for me.
- jboles 10y ago
  Besides being paranoid/insecure, it is placing responsibility for your own negative emotions on, in this example, an innocuous stranger. Only you are responsible for your own happiness. There's also attractiveness as an input factor, at least if the person branding someone 'creepy' is shallow or superficial.

wwweston 10y ago

That's an interesting formulation. It sounds like a sort of uncanny valley of being "valued." I'm a little wary of the term -- I think it's over deployed as a form of social violence -- but there's no denying that what you're describing happens and is pretty uncomfortable.

andrewstuart2 10y ago

I think the key word in your definition is "too" but I'd add more specificity to it: "you want something from me, which I'm not interested in giving you, and you're not reacting to my negative cues by backing off." This may still be too general, as there are plenty of scenarios where this would connote "annoying" rather than "creepy," like with a persistent salesperson. Perhaps it could be more accurate yet by adding "and I'm worried you may try to take it against my will, and have a chance of succeeding." to the end. That would cover, for example, noticing some masked figure sneaking toward your house with a crowbar.

enraged_camel 10y ago
That's just persistence though. Creepiness takes it to another level: it implies discomfort and fear/anxiety for one's safety/wellbeing. Stalkers are creepy. Overeager salespeople aren't.
- andrewstuart2 10y ago
  Right, that's exactly what I'm saying with the second point I made. EDIT: Although, I just realized I forgot to take out an unfinished sentence that was seemingly contradictory.
- rue 10y ago
  Don’t be persistent. Just don’t.

jandrese 10y ago

I thought it was more "That person or thing is interested in me and I am not interested in, or even disgusted by, them." One of the takeways is that the line between "cute flirting" and "creepy stalking" is if the other person is interested in you.

matt4077 10y ago
Or, maybe, it's the suitor's ability to recognize rejection.
- jandrese 10y ago
  That would certainly be part of it. Rejecting being the signalling mechanism that the second party uses to communicate their lack of interest to the first party.
- kaitai 10y ago
  Recognize rejection, and then not retaliate. A flirter who flirts with me and makes it clear it's all in good fun, there's no pressure for more, if I need to go catch a bus I'm not an unfeeling b*^%$, if I don't feel like smiling/flirting it's ok; a flirter who makes me feel confident he's not going to call me names in public or follow me around for a week due to a pleasant interaction -- not creepy. A flirter who keeps pressing on despite signs of discomfort, who doesn't leave me alone, who tries to imply I owe him something, who starts making grand plans for the future based on a few sentences interaction, who calls me names if I have to catch the bus -- creepy. These are all a little unpredictable (smiling conversation at a bar with a stranger, "Gotta go -- nice to chat!", sudden eruption of debasing language, for instance) as well as having high scores for other creepy factors identified in the paper. A little test for yourself: flirt for enjoyment and then walk away with no expectation of ever talking to the person again. Can you do it? Practiced non-creepy flirters can do this well.
mcv 10y ago
It's not just that. It's continuing despite the other party not being interested. Flirting is a two-way street.

Tycho 10y ago

I think creepyness has to relate to some perceived threat. Example: in horror films, children can be super creepy, because there is a hint of supernatural threat. But in real life? Never, because they pose no threat. Too focussed on something is only a symptom, the real feeling comes from fear that the individual is unstable or will go to extreme lengths to get what they seem to want. To avoid appearing creepy you need to understand what sort of fears people might have. The exact same interaction may be 10x creepier in an empty car park than a busy office floor. Sometimes the fears may be unwarranted or unfair, of course.