5 ms·

I'm no fan of sprawl, but once a critical mass of households own a car, it's economically much more efficient because people can travel point to point rather th

I'm no fan of sprawl, but once a critical mass of households own a car, it's economically much more efficient because people can travel point to point rather than fixed paths. Sprawl can be made much nicer and less economically competitive by eliminating or raising maximum density limits, eliminating or lowering minimum parking limits, and channeling development into designated areas so that transit is easier. For instance, look at Skarholmen, outside of Stockholm (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=skarholmen,+stockholm&mrt=all&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Sk%C3%A4rholmen,+Stockholm,+Sweden&ll=59.267372,17.8969&spn=0.060091,0.154324&t=h&z=13 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q...) . It's Stockholm's sprawl, built in the 60's to handle population growth as Sweden urbanized. The subway runs parallel to the highway, with regional draws (factories for employment, big shopping like Ikea) by the highway and local shopping like a grocery store, a small mall (Skarholmen Centrum), post office, etc clustered around the subway stop (the "T" on the map). There are apartments (3-6 stories) clustered around the Centrum, then townhouses beyond that and some houses beyond that. Nearby stops have small grocery stores (similar to a CVS or Walgreens) and apartments around them, and if people need more stuff they ride the train to Skarholmen. For specialized stuff they ride into Stockholm or drive/bus to the big stores by the highway. So most people don't need cars even for work or shopping. Overcrowding? No, apartments are very affordable so people don't need to pack into them. Concrete jungle? Hardly, there are parks between every apartment building and raw forest less than a mile away. So what's missing from here? That's not rhetorical, I'd really like to know what is bad about this compared to American-style suburbia. The only thing I can really think of is that very people have a private yard or an apartment big enough to entertain a lot of people.

ugh 17y ago
I just despise the bad kind of sprawl :) (i.e. where you need a car) It’s also more of an aesthetic judgement. I want to be able to get to work with a bike. I want many nice restaurants and coffeehouse within walking distance. I want to able to do all my shopping with my bike. I’m more than happy to give up huge cheap living spaces and big malls and all the other little convenient things which make living in suburbia easy. I can see how others might have different opinions. Convenience vs. all the nice things. I pick all the nice things :)
evanrmurphy 17y ago
It sounds like most people are driving cars instead of walking or cycling and small businesses are virtually nonexistant. This seems like a problem to me.
- pchristensen 17y ago
  No, most people are walking or riding trains. Very few people have cars. Small businesses were about as common as in US suburbs.
  - evanrmurphy 17y ago
    > No, most people are walking or riding trains. Very few people have cars. I guess I misinterpreted your "once a critical mass of households own a car" comment. > Small businesses were about as common as in US suburbs. Virtually nonexistant in the US suburbs I come from. I think this quality is representative of suburbs in general, but mine may also be an extreme case.
    - pchristensen 17y ago
      I started out saying that auto-burbs are economically efficient once enough people own cars, then gave Skarholmen as an example of how it could be. The lack of small businesses is typical of suburbs, which are primarily places to live without a specific local economic purpose. Exceptions are typically hair salons, small restaurants, dry cleaners, etc.
rebeccaefrank 17y ago
Also, what tends to happen (either intentionally or as a side effect) of suburbs is that racial and socio-economic groups isolate themselves and can thus not be surrounded by as much diversity as in city living. This happens to some extent in urban centers but it's historically based upon access to amenities for minority populations rather than blatant prejudice.

ugh 17y ago

I just despise the bad kind of sprawl :) (i.e. where you need a car) It’s also more of an aesthetic judgement. I want to be able to get to work with a bike. I want many nice restaurants and coffeehouse within walking distance. I want to able to do all my shopping with my bike. I’m more than happy to give up huge cheap living spaces and big malls and all the other little convenient things which make living in suburbia easy. I can see how others might have different opinions. Convenience vs. all the nice things. I pick all the nice things :)

evanrmurphy 17y ago

It sounds like most people are driving cars instead of walking or cycling and small businesses are virtually nonexistant. This seems like a problem to me.

pchristensen 17y ago
No, most people are walking or riding trains. Very few people have cars. Small businesses were about as common as in US suburbs.
- evanrmurphy 17y ago
  > No, most people are walking or riding trains. Very few people have cars. I guess I misinterpreted your "once a critical mass of households own a car" comment. > Small businesses were about as common as in US suburbs. Virtually nonexistant in the US suburbs I come from. I think this quality is representative of suburbs in general, but mine may also be an extreme case.
  - pchristensen 17y ago
    I started out saying that auto-burbs are economically efficient once enough people own cars, then gave Skarholmen as an example of how it could be. The lack of small businesses is typical of suburbs, which are primarily places to live without a specific local economic purpose. Exceptions are typically hair salons, small restaurants, dry cleaners, etc.

rebeccaefrank 17y ago

Also, what tends to happen (either intentionally or as a side effect) of suburbs is that racial and socio-economic groups isolate themselves and can thus not be surrounded by as much diversity as in city living. This happens to some extent in urban centers but it's historically based upon access to amenities for minority populations rather than blatant prejudice.