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"very regimented sweatshop ... The good part is that the developers there have a set 8 hour workday and leave earlier in the afternoon" You use the term sweats

"very regimented sweatshop ... The good part is that the developers there have a set 8 hour workday and leave earlier in the afternoon" You use the term sweatshop, and then say everyone goes home early. Really? " rigid working hours" Business hours are not for everyone, but they are for a lot of people, and they help foster collaboration. "everyone is expected to show up at 8am for breakfast" Not mandatory (it's an incentive to come in on time), but it is free.. As is lunch. Not dissimilar from most SV companies. "mostly to prevent procrastination and force people to at least try to code" So, it's a sweatshop because people are encouraged to work, and not browse Facebook behind a closed door? There are lots of opportunities to take a break, from Xbox to ping-pong. "It obviously works for them because they can just churn out sort-of working apps and let some other suckers deal with maintenance/rewrites later." This is quite a conclusion to draw from a video. You do realize that outside of R&D, most Labs teams are balanced customer/Pivotal pairs? There is no belief in handing over to a maintenance team, let alone doing the development by ourselves. You build it, you run it, is the mantra. The whole business model is to build products while teaching companies a culture (open, Devops, collaborative but high discipline) and process (XP, CD) and tools (PaaS, open source) of how to build software productively.

chris_wot 10y ago
Try sprinting at full speed for an hour. Now try walking normally for an hour. Which makes you the most tired?
- parasubvert 10y ago
  Sprinting, obviously. I'd posit it is a much more fulfilling experience to put a full 8 hours x 5 days sustainably, than the industry's usual "crap we need to work evenings and weekends, we're late"
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    I'm not saying you are a sweatshop, merely pointing out sweatshops can still have workers who operate during normal working hours.
    - parasubvert 10y ago
      I hear you, but I'm saying that's not the generally accepted use of the term which is: long hours, socially unacceptable working conditions, and low wages. It conjures up the image of something that warrants legal/political challenge. I could see this being argued for the traditional game development industry, which was plagued by long hours, harassment, and shit pay.
      - chris_wot 10y ago
        That's a fair point. It was wrong to call Pivotal a sweatshop, I've never worked there or even visited so it would not be right to call the organisation that. Actually, I didn't mean to even imply Pivotal was, I was more focussed on a very narrow point so if I gave you the impression I agreed then I apologise because it isn't the case! I think you've already recognised the work hours aren't for everyone in your previous comment, so it sounds like Pivotal's hiring policy is pretty solid on this point. And in fact, it's not even an unreasonable expectation for everyone to come in on time, but probably a less popular one on HN judging from the downvotes you are getting. To be honest, it's a model I prefer. In my previous workplace I worked ridiculous hours due to understaffing and a few other issues and had to resign from burn-out. I'd much prefer to work for a Pivotal than I would a company like the last one I worked for :-) Heck, if Pivotal can get all their work done without a final crunch time, that's actually pretty amazing! I'd go so far as to say that I've never heard of a company who got this working before, so if that is the case then Pivotal are clearly doing something right. If only you were hiring in Australia, I'd seriously consider applying :P
        parasubvert 10y ago
        "I'd go so far as to say that I've never heard of a company who got this working before, so if that is the case then Pivotal are clearly doing something right." I hadn't really seen it before either, TBH. It is not perfect - sometimes we ship late. But that's part of the culture - Pivotal Tracker (www.pivotaltracker.com) tells you the date you're expected to ship given the work you have left, you don't tell it when to ship ;) Management won't break people over a deadline, they'll generally slip the date. Sustainability is more important. We do have a small/growing office in Sydney with a few openings: http://pivotal.io/locations/sydney http://pivotal.io/locations/sydney
sedachv 10y ago
> So, it's a sweatshop because people are encouraged to work, and not browse Facebook behind a closed door? It is a sweatshop because management is trying to impose a rigid pace of work and a surveillance scheme on employees. The word "sweatshop" is traditionally (AFAIK, don't have access to OED right now to confirm) associated with garment cut-and-sew workshops, which are organized exactly like an open plan programming office: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sewing+factory&t=ffsb&iax=1&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sewing+factory&t=ffsb&iax=1&ia=ima... The false dichotomy you present (you are either working exactly like we tell you to work when and how we tell you to work, or you must be slacking off) is exactly the kind of rationalizing used by sweatshop managers who are trying to break unions or deskill workers. I recommend reading David Noble's _Forces of Production: A Social History of Industrial Automation_ and Ellen Rose's _User Error: Resisting Computer Culture_ to learn more about how and why these efforts are used, why they are counterproductive, and to learn how to recognize when management is trying to apply them to your work as a computer programmer.
- parasubvert 10y ago
  "It is a sweatshop because management is trying to impose a rigid pace of work and a surveillance scheme on employees." Sorry, that's nonsense. Instead of "rigid" and "surveillance", I'd say "disciplined" and "actually managed". As opposed to "do whatever you'd like" and "unmanaged". What's the difference of a disciplined culture and a rigid culture, or surveillance vs. actual management? I'd say it's whether the employees actually WANT and VALUE these things. In my experience, everyone here WANTS a strong discipline of TDD, pairing, CI/CD, 8 hour work day, etc. And everyone WANTS a strong product manager and product owner that knows what's going on with the latest stories, bugs, and velocity. It makes for a better product, team, and morale.

chris_wot 10y ago

Try sprinting at full speed for an hour. Now try walking normally for an hour. Which makes you the most tired?

parasubvert 10y ago
Sprinting, obviously. I'd posit it is a much more fulfilling experience to put a full 8 hours x 5 days sustainably, than the industry's usual "crap we need to work evenings and weekends, we're late"
- chris_wot 10y ago
  I'm not saying you are a sweatshop, merely pointing out sweatshops can still have workers who operate during normal working hours.
  - parasubvert 10y ago
    I hear you, but I'm saying that's not the generally accepted use of the term which is: long hours, socially unacceptable working conditions, and low wages. It conjures up the image of something that warrants legal/political challenge. I could see this being argued for the traditional game development industry, which was plagued by long hours, harassment, and shit pay.
    - chris_wot 10y ago
      That's a fair point. It was wrong to call Pivotal a sweatshop, I've never worked there or even visited so it would not be right to call the organisation that. Actually, I didn't mean to even imply Pivotal was, I was more focussed on a very narrow point so if I gave you the impression I agreed then I apologise because it isn't the case! I think you've already recognised the work hours aren't for everyone in your previous comment, so it sounds like Pivotal's hiring policy is pretty solid on this point. And in fact, it's not even an unreasonable expectation for everyone to come in on time, but probably a less popular one on HN judging from the downvotes you are getting. To be honest, it's a model I prefer. In my previous workplace I worked ridiculous hours due to understaffing and a few other issues and had to resign from burn-out. I'd much prefer to work for a Pivotal than I would a company like the last one I worked for :-) Heck, if Pivotal can get all their work done without a final crunch time, that's actually pretty amazing! I'd go so far as to say that I've never heard of a company who got this working before, so if that is the case then Pivotal are clearly doing something right. If only you were hiring in Australia, I'd seriously consider applying :P
      - parasubvert 10y ago
        "I'd go so far as to say that I've never heard of a company who got this working before, so if that is the case then Pivotal are clearly doing something right." I hadn't really seen it before either, TBH. It is not perfect - sometimes we ship late. But that's part of the culture - Pivotal Tracker (www.pivotaltracker.com) tells you the date you're expected to ship given the work you have left, you don't tell it when to ship ;) Management won't break people over a deadline, they'll generally slip the date. Sustainability is more important. We do have a small/growing office in Sydney with a few openings: http://pivotal.io/locations/sydney http://pivotal.io/locations/sydney

sedachv 10y ago

> So, it's a sweatshop because people are encouraged to work, and not browse Facebook behind a closed door? It is a sweatshop because management is trying to impose a rigid pace of work and a surveillance scheme on employees. The word "sweatshop" is traditionally (AFAIK, don't have access to OED right now to confirm) associated with garment cut-and-sew workshops, which are organized exactly like an open plan programming office: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sewing+factory&t=ffsb&iax=1&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sewing+factory&t=ffsb&iax=1&ia=ima... The false dichotomy you present (you are either working exactly like we tell you to work when and how we tell you to work, or you must be slacking off) is exactly the kind of rationalizing used by sweatshop managers who are trying to break unions or deskill workers. I recommend reading David Noble's _Forces of Production: A Social History of Industrial Automation_ and Ellen Rose's _User Error: Resisting Computer Culture_ to learn more about how and why these efforts are used, why they are counterproductive, and to learn how to recognize when management is trying to apply them to your work as a computer programmer.

parasubvert 10y ago
"It is a sweatshop because management is trying to impose a rigid pace of work and a surveillance scheme on employees." Sorry, that's nonsense. Instead of "rigid" and "surveillance", I'd say "disciplined" and "actually managed". As opposed to "do whatever you'd like" and "unmanaged". What's the difference of a disciplined culture and a rigid culture, or surveillance vs. actual management? I'd say it's whether the employees actually WANT and VALUE these things. In my experience, everyone here WANTS a strong discipline of TDD, pairing, CI/CD, 8 hour work day, etc. And everyone WANTS a strong product manager and product owner that knows what's going on with the latest stories, bugs, and velocity. It makes for a better product, team, and morale.