4 ms·

'hey! look at these introverted developers' meme As an extremely vocal individual, being vocal actually is a loss in productivity. When I am trying to communic

'hey! look at these introverted developers' meme As an extremely vocal individual, being vocal actually is a loss in productivity. When I am trying to communicate what I am doing to my co-workers - it leads the project from slowing down - and me unable to meet my deadlines. This is why I do not like to waste my time explaining others what I am doing. Its more productive for them to specify the Inputs and Outputs and me doing my thing.

studentrob 10y ago
> being vocal actually is a loss in productivity You're talking about someone who is too noisy. This kind of person probably benefits from an open environment with instant feedback. Even though the group may suffer a bit short term, in the long term, that person will be a better team member when they learn when and how to speak. People who are too quiet can also benefit from being among a respectful group. Safety in numbers, and you can learn from your peers. These are not hard and fast rules. I'm just discussing times when open environments can help teams. The parent of this thread did not mention any of the benefits of open offices.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  You made a pretty sweeping assertion about software developers. Is this an anecdotal observation or do you have any empirical data to back it up? Genuinely curious...
  - studentrob 10y ago
    You mean this? -- "Software developers grow up with more screen time than others. They need forced interaction in order to communicate enough in person. Otherwise it's all by text and can easily degrade to passive aggression." Yup it is a sweeping generalization. I'm comfortable making it. I am/was one. It's totally anecdotal, based on my 15 years experience in work and school environments around both engineers and sales-y type people. The engineers are, on the whole, way more comfortable with screens than people. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm not aware of any published research but if I were going to design an office I'd try to research people's experiences by asking friends or Google [1] All engineers are different and there are many who prefer people to screens. I think the rest of my first comment explained that people are not all the same and can change over time. I would never create an office seating plan without getting to know each individual. I would also change it up over time. Sitting in the same place all the time for years is too boring. [1] https://encrypted.google.com/search?safe=off&q=software+engineer+open+floor+plan+or+cubicles https://encrypted.google.com/search?safe=off&q=software+engi...
    - chris_wot 10y ago
      I see where you are coming from, it's just I doubt your premise. I don't think your average software developer grows up with more screen time than the average teenager playing XBox360 or PlayStation III. Heck, I know accountancy and law students who were socially well adjusted that played more Counter Strike than I did messing about with my Linux system when I was a student!
      - studentrob 10y ago
        > I know accountancy and law students who were socially well adjusted that played more Counter Strike than I did messing about with my Linux system when I was a student! Sure, there are individuals at any point on the scale. We're talking about averages though. I have no qualms about disagreeing over where the averages lie. In fact I would widen my generalization and say that younger people are, on average, more comfortable talking through screens than directly person to person. Young engineers are just a subset of that who I think are more likely to be screen focused. I'm okay with embracing some elements of stereotypes. Denying them entirely seems like an equally useless generalization. This sub-thread was started by someone who felt open office environments aren't effective. Yet, open offices can be a tool for getting people used to person to person interaction. Every person, group, and organization will decide whether they think that's important or not.
        chris_wot 10y ago
        Just a small difference of opinion, I honestly asked to understand where you were coming from :-) I've also got only anecdotal information, in all likelihood you could be correct! Open communication within any organisation is very important so a developer who sits in his own office all day is a concern I'm in agreement with you. I guess I'm just not convinced of the reasons for the behaviour. But I think your observations are interesting and valid, so I appreciate you taking the time to give me a solid answer!
        studentrob 10y ago
        Sure thing! Thanks to you also for making me think =) > I guess I'm just not convinced of the reasons for the behaviour Reasons for behavior, even for a single individual, are super tough if not impossible to nail down. But we can make some educated guesses based on correlations. If we prevent ourselves from forming such hypotheses, life might get pretty boring. In hindsight, my original statement could be more accurately prefaced by "in my experience, ..."

studentrob 10y ago

> being vocal actually is a loss in productivity You're talking about someone who is too noisy. This kind of person probably benefits from an open environment with instant feedback. Even though the group may suffer a bit short term, in the long term, that person will be a better team member when they learn when and how to speak. People who are too quiet can also benefit from being among a respectful group. Safety in numbers, and you can learn from your peers. These are not hard and fast rules. I'm just discussing times when open environments can help teams. The parent of this thread did not mention any of the benefits of open offices.

chris_wot 10y ago
You made a pretty sweeping assertion about software developers. Is this an anecdotal observation or do you have any empirical data to back it up? Genuinely curious...
- studentrob 10y ago
  You mean this? -- "Software developers grow up with more screen time than others. They need forced interaction in order to communicate enough in person. Otherwise it's all by text and can easily degrade to passive aggression." Yup it is a sweeping generalization. I'm comfortable making it. I am/was one. It's totally anecdotal, based on my 15 years experience in work and school environments around both engineers and sales-y type people. The engineers are, on the whole, way more comfortable with screens than people. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm not aware of any published research but if I were going to design an office I'd try to research people's experiences by asking friends or Google [1] All engineers are different and there are many who prefer people to screens. I think the rest of my first comment explained that people are not all the same and can change over time. I would never create an office seating plan without getting to know each individual. I would also change it up over time. Sitting in the same place all the time for years is too boring. [1] https://encrypted.google.com/search?safe=off&q=software+engineer+open+floor+plan+or+cubicles https://encrypted.google.com/search?safe=off&q=software+engi...
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    I see where you are coming from, it's just I doubt your premise. I don't think your average software developer grows up with more screen time than the average teenager playing XBox360 or PlayStation III. Heck, I know accountancy and law students who were socially well adjusted that played more Counter Strike than I did messing about with my Linux system when I was a student!
    - studentrob 10y ago
      > I know accountancy and law students who were socially well adjusted that played more Counter Strike than I did messing about with my Linux system when I was a student! Sure, there are individuals at any point on the scale. We're talking about averages though. I have no qualms about disagreeing over where the averages lie. In fact I would widen my generalization and say that younger people are, on average, more comfortable talking through screens than directly person to person. Young engineers are just a subset of that who I think are more likely to be screen focused. I'm okay with embracing some elements of stereotypes. Denying them entirely seems like an equally useless generalization. This sub-thread was started by someone who felt open office environments aren't effective. Yet, open offices can be a tool for getting people used to person to person interaction. Every person, group, and organization will decide whether they think that's important or not.
      - chris_wot 10y ago
        Just a small difference of opinion, I honestly asked to understand where you were coming from :-) I've also got only anecdotal information, in all likelihood you could be correct! Open communication within any organisation is very important so a developer who sits in his own office all day is a concern I'm in agreement with you. I guess I'm just not convinced of the reasons for the behaviour. But I think your observations are interesting and valid, so I appreciate you taking the time to give me a solid answer!
        studentrob 10y ago
        Sure thing! Thanks to you also for making me think =) > I guess I'm just not convinced of the reasons for the behaviour Reasons for behavior, even for a single individual, are super tough if not impossible to nail down. But we can make some educated guesses based on correlations. If we prevent ourselves from forming such hypotheses, life might get pretty boring. In hindsight, my original statement could be more accurately prefaced by "in my experience, ..."