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It's actually amazing how many soft devs have no clue about the impact of the Linux, the command line, which they now call the 'CLI', true editors and fast home

It's actually amazing how many soft devs have no clue about the impact of the Linux, the command line, which they now call the 'CLI', true editors and fast home grown IDEs. A shift needs to take place at the core of software development. Linux made everything possible.

karmajunkie 10y ago
Ahh yeah, it was all Linux. The 40 years worth of computing history and foundational operating systems before Linus came on the scene had nothing to do with it.
- imglorp 10y ago
  Sarcasm noted, but think back to 1991. We had a half dozen mostly incompatible desktop OS's and around a dozen Unix-like variants (mac, pc, amiga, cpm, etc), mostly with proprietary hardware (hpux, aix, sun, apollo, dg, dec, etc). The internet and decent interop protocols were just getting started. Remember DCE and RCP? Bleh). Linux now runs on almost _all_ of those with a mostly compatible API and ABI, from raspi to Z-mainframe, speaks to hundreds of weird hardwares, and hundreds more network protocols built in. I'd say it was instrumental.
  - karmajunkie 10y ago
    lets be clear, the impact of linux has been great, in many ways. I compiled my first linux kernel in 1994, and I don't think I'd be the developer I am today without having had access to and experience with Linux. But come on, the tenor and tone of the parent comment is incredibly myopic, ignoring decades of legacy that Linux imitated. Its also a bit much to attribute the trend of hardware compatibility and binary independence (which is quite a bit sketchier IMO) to Linux. This was a trend that has been ongoing for years, and would have without the introduction of linux. TBH we probably have Microsoft to thank for that more than anyone, by setting expectations across the consumer market that hardware be mostly-compatible with an OS.
    - zxcvcxz 10y ago
      I think you're reading too much into the comment. Your argument is that they're ignoring history. Just because there was something before Linux doesn't mean Linux hasn't changed things. The point about Linux seems valid to me, seeing as it's the dominant kernel in nearly every market. You go on to praise Windows, as if it's okay to ignore history when it comes to MS. Eh... I think people in HN get overly offended when people state the fact that Linux has been historically revolutionary.
      - mercurial 10y ago
        > seeing as it's the dominant kernel in nearly every market. That's disingenuous, not every market has the same weight. Microsoft owns the desktop market, and there are many countries where it also owns the enterprise/server market. > people in HN get overly offended when people state the fact that Linux has been historically revolutionary There is a big difference between saying "Linux was revolutionary" (considering the impact it had, absolutely true), and "Linux was revolutionary from a technical standpoint" (it wasn't).
        karmajunkie 10y ago
        How was linux revolutionary? Unices had been around for years before that, and IIRC even the choice of a monolithic kernel vs a microkernel architecture was seen as a somewhat conservative choice. Culturally, its not like free software hadnt been a movement for a decade already. IMO Linux's place in history was accidental, occuring because of the confluence of a number of external factors and trends. As another poster noted, if it hadn't been Linux, it would have been BSD or something else entirely. (All of which is not to downplay the value and contributions that Linux did make. But lets keep it in perspective.)
      - JdeBP 10y ago
        It's rather difficult to read too much into an unequivocal all-encompassing statement that "Linux made everything possible.".
  - lmm 10y ago
    So does BSD though. To my mind it's accidents of history (in particular the AT&T lawsuit) that lead to Linux being the thing, and if it hadn't been Linux it would've been something else. (Indeed I believe Torvalds said that if 386BSD had been going around Helsinki at the time there would never have been a Linux).
    - ultraballer 10y ago
      True. If it wasn't for the license war between AT&T and BSD we would live in a parallel universe where everyone is running FreeBSD everywhere. Kind of cool how randomness creates forks in time.
      - ccozan 10y ago
        Absolutely true about the war that lead to the Linux mainstreaming. And btw, is there a list of such points in computing history, where a slightly small change in a decision would have lead to a different computing environment ( i.e. "forks in time") ? This would be a very good read. And a nice practical introduction of chaos theory.
        mamon 10y ago
        One such moment was when IBM decided to sign the deal with Microsoft, giving them exclusive license on operating systems for IBM PC. As someone put it: Were there one person with a brain at IBM to proof-read that deal, Microsoft would never become such a big company as it is today. But there wasn't any, so we ended up with Windows at 95% of PCs worldwide.
- PeCaN 10y ago
  Most of which were much better designed than Linux, for that matter. I appreciate Linux and use it often, but it is a 1970s OS design at best.
  - PeCaN 10y ago
    Downvoted because...? *nixes are a lot of things, but good from an OS design standpoint is not one of them. AS/400. VMS. Plan9. Amiga. QNX. Even NT. All of these date to before Linux was created. (Strictly speaking, I believe Plan9's first public release was after Linux's, but work on Plan9 started at Bell in the mid 80s.) VMS and NT handle async IO much better. QNX, and to an extent NT, are more reliable¹ by design (as microkernels²). AS/400 and Plan9 are based on more powerful and coherent abstractions ("everything is an object" and "everything is a file" respectively). -- ¹The NT kernel really is quite reliable, it's everything else that gives Windows a bad reputation for reliability. ²NT isn't strictly a microkernel, but it's very microkernel-ish.
gregmac 10y ago
> It's actually amazing how many soft devs have no clue about the impact of the Linux, the command line, which they now call the 'CLI', true editors and fast home grown IDEs. A shift needs to take place at the core of software development. Linux made everything possible. Ok.. reluctantly, I'll bite. Why does a shift "need" to take place? What do you believe is broken and how is a developer "understanding the impact" of Linux going to fix it? Also, what is a "true editor" and conversely what makes an editor not "true"? Do you have examples? Can software development only be done in a "true" editor?
- nick_urban 10y ago
  It seems to me that the poster is not a native english speaker ("soft devs", "the Linux", etc.), and may have intended to say that it "needed" to take place, and that Linux helped bring it about.
zxcvcxz 10y ago
Totally agree. People forget that Linux is the dominant kernel/os because it dominates nearly every market that isn't the desktop (server/mobile/IoT/toasters). On stack overflow dev survey they show about 21% of devs on SO use Linux, compared to regular desktop usage which is a generous 2% that's a 10-fold increase of Linux on the desktop among developers compared to the general populace. OS X also experiences about a 2-fold increase whereas windows experiences a large decrease in use amongst developers compared to its general desktop usage. I think Windows should just switch to the Linux kernel and build Windows container to run legacy programs and port all their software to Linux if they want to win over devs. The "bash on Windows" doesn't appeal to me at all. Of course, here on hacker news the culture is really more corporate than hacker.
- gajjanag 10y ago
  > People forget that Linux is the dominant kernel/os because it dominates nearly every market that isn't the desktop (server/mobile/IoT/toasters). This is mostly correct while referring to the kernel. Nevertheless, a kernel by itself is just one component of the low level system. And I personally definitely do not consider the Android experience a "GNU/Linux" one - even the base libc is replaced with a quite broken (e.g wrt POSIX) Bionic. This is leaving aside all the firmware issues, lack of administrator control without "rooting", etc. So in other words: it is natural to "forget" that Linux is widespread on mobile devices, simply because the experience is extremely different.
- AdieuToLogic 10y ago
  People forget that Linux is the dominant kernel/os because it dominates nearly every market that isn't the desktop People also forget that Linux came to prominence once backed by corporations having and a (valid, IMHO) agenda to not be controlled by Microsoft. The severe OEM and license agreements negotiated in the late 80's and 90's certainly motivated R&D into alternatives. And people forget that there are other very popular markets[0] using other toolsets[1]. So, when you say: here on hacker news the culture is really more corporate than hacker. It seems to create a paradox. 0 - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/16/sony_playstation_4_kernel/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/16/sony_playstation_4_k... 1 - https://wiki.freebsd.org/Myths https://wiki.freebsd.org/Myths
JshWright 10y ago
> the command line, which they now call the 'CLI' "CLI" stands for "command line interface" and has been a very standard abbreviation for a very long time...

karmajunkie 10y ago

Ahh yeah, it was all Linux. The 40 years worth of computing history and foundational operating systems before Linus came on the scene had nothing to do with it.

imglorp 10y ago
Sarcasm noted, but think back to 1991. We had a half dozen mostly incompatible desktop OS's and around a dozen Unix-like variants (mac, pc, amiga, cpm, etc), mostly with proprietary hardware (hpux, aix, sun, apollo, dg, dec, etc). The internet and decent interop protocols were just getting started. Remember DCE and RCP? Bleh). Linux now runs on almost _all_ of those with a mostly compatible API and ABI, from raspi to Z-mainframe, speaks to hundreds of weird hardwares, and hundreds more network protocols built in. I'd say it was instrumental.
- karmajunkie 10y ago
  lets be clear, the impact of linux has been great, in many ways. I compiled my first linux kernel in 1994, and I don't think I'd be the developer I am today without having had access to and experience with Linux. But come on, the tenor and tone of the parent comment is incredibly myopic, ignoring decades of legacy that Linux imitated. Its also a bit much to attribute the trend of hardware compatibility and binary independence (which is quite a bit sketchier IMO) to Linux. This was a trend that has been ongoing for years, and would have without the introduction of linux. TBH we probably have Microsoft to thank for that more than anyone, by setting expectations across the consumer market that hardware be mostly-compatible with an OS.
  - zxcvcxz 10y ago
    I think you're reading too much into the comment. Your argument is that they're ignoring history. Just because there was something before Linux doesn't mean Linux hasn't changed things. The point about Linux seems valid to me, seeing as it's the dominant kernel in nearly every market. You go on to praise Windows, as if it's okay to ignore history when it comes to MS. Eh... I think people in HN get overly offended when people state the fact that Linux has been historically revolutionary.
    - mercurial 10y ago
      > seeing as it's the dominant kernel in nearly every market. That's disingenuous, not every market has the same weight. Microsoft owns the desktop market, and there are many countries where it also owns the enterprise/server market. > people in HN get overly offended when people state the fact that Linux has been historically revolutionary There is a big difference between saying "Linux was revolutionary" (considering the impact it had, absolutely true), and "Linux was revolutionary from a technical standpoint" (it wasn't).
      - karmajunkie 10y ago
        How was linux revolutionary? Unices had been around for years before that, and IIRC even the choice of a monolithic kernel vs a microkernel architecture was seen as a somewhat conservative choice. Culturally, its not like free software hadnt been a movement for a decade already. IMO Linux's place in history was accidental, occuring because of the confluence of a number of external factors and trends. As another poster noted, if it hadn't been Linux, it would have been BSD or something else entirely. (All of which is not to downplay the value and contributions that Linux did make. But lets keep it in perspective.)
    - JdeBP 10y ago
      It's rather difficult to read too much into an unequivocal all-encompassing statement that "Linux made everything possible.".
- lmm 10y ago
  So does BSD though. To my mind it's accidents of history (in particular the AT&T lawsuit) that lead to Linux being the thing, and if it hadn't been Linux it would've been something else. (Indeed I believe Torvalds said that if 386BSD had been going around Helsinki at the time there would never have been a Linux).
  - ultraballer 10y ago
    True. If it wasn't for the license war between AT&T and BSD we would live in a parallel universe where everyone is running FreeBSD everywhere. Kind of cool how randomness creates forks in time.
    - ccozan 10y ago
      Absolutely true about the war that lead to the Linux mainstreaming. And btw, is there a list of such points in computing history, where a slightly small change in a decision would have lead to a different computing environment ( i.e. "forks in time") ? This would be a very good read. And a nice practical introduction of chaos theory.
      - mamon 10y ago
        One such moment was when IBM decided to sign the deal with Microsoft, giving them exclusive license on operating systems for IBM PC. As someone put it: Were there one person with a brain at IBM to proof-read that deal, Microsoft would never become such a big company as it is today. But there wasn't any, so we ended up with Windows at 95% of PCs worldwide.
PeCaN 10y ago
Most of which were much better designed than Linux, for that matter. I appreciate Linux and use it often, but it is a 1970s OS design at best.
- PeCaN 10y ago
  Downvoted because...? *nixes are a lot of things, but good from an OS design standpoint is not one of them. AS/400. VMS. Plan9. Amiga. QNX. Even NT. All of these date to before Linux was created. (Strictly speaking, I believe Plan9's first public release was after Linux's, but work on Plan9 started at Bell in the mid 80s.) VMS and NT handle async IO much better. QNX, and to an extent NT, are more reliable¹ by design (as microkernels²). AS/400 and Plan9 are based on more powerful and coherent abstractions ("everything is an object" and "everything is a file" respectively). -- ¹The NT kernel really is quite reliable, it's everything else that gives Windows a bad reputation for reliability. ²NT isn't strictly a microkernel, but it's very microkernel-ish.

gregmac 10y ago

> It's actually amazing how many soft devs have no clue about the impact of the Linux, the command line, which they now call the 'CLI', true editors and fast home grown IDEs. A shift needs to take place at the core of software development. Linux made everything possible. Ok.. reluctantly, I'll bite. Why does a shift "need" to take place? What do you believe is broken and how is a developer "understanding the impact" of Linux going to fix it? Also, what is a "true editor" and conversely what makes an editor not "true"? Do you have examples? Can software development only be done in a "true" editor?

nick_urban 10y ago
It seems to me that the poster is not a native english speaker ("soft devs", "the Linux", etc.), and may have intended to say that it "needed" to take place, and that Linux helped bring it about.

zxcvcxz 10y ago

Totally agree. People forget that Linux is the dominant kernel/os because it dominates nearly every market that isn't the desktop (server/mobile/IoT/toasters). On stack overflow dev survey they show about 21% of devs on SO use Linux, compared to regular desktop usage which is a generous 2% that's a 10-fold increase of Linux on the desktop among developers compared to the general populace. OS X also experiences about a 2-fold increase whereas windows experiences a large decrease in use amongst developers compared to its general desktop usage. I think Windows should just switch to the Linux kernel and build Windows container to run legacy programs and port all their software to Linux if they want to win over devs. The "bash on Windows" doesn't appeal to me at all. Of course, here on hacker news the culture is really more corporate than hacker.

gajjanag 10y ago
> People forget that Linux is the dominant kernel/os because it dominates nearly every market that isn't the desktop (server/mobile/IoT/toasters). This is mostly correct while referring to the kernel. Nevertheless, a kernel by itself is just one component of the low level system. And I personally definitely do not consider the Android experience a "GNU/Linux" one - even the base libc is replaced with a quite broken (e.g wrt POSIX) Bionic. This is leaving aside all the firmware issues, lack of administrator control without "rooting", etc. So in other words: it is natural to "forget" that Linux is widespread on mobile devices, simply because the experience is extremely different.
AdieuToLogic 10y ago
People forget that Linux is the dominant kernel/os because it dominates nearly every market that isn't the desktop People also forget that Linux came to prominence once backed by corporations having and a (valid, IMHO) agenda to not be controlled by Microsoft. The severe OEM and license agreements negotiated in the late 80's and 90's certainly motivated R&D into alternatives. And people forget that there are other very popular markets[0] using other toolsets[1]. So, when you say: here on hacker news the culture is really more corporate than hacker. It seems to create a paradox. 0 - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/16/sony_playstation_4_kernel/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/16/sony_playstation_4_k... 1 - https://wiki.freebsd.org/Myths https://wiki.freebsd.org/Myths

JshWright 10y ago

> the command line, which they now call the 'CLI' "CLI" stands for "command line interface" and has been a very standard abbreviation for a very long time...