6 ms·

America wants Democratic People's Republic of Korea (aka North Korea) around just as much as China does; excuse to have bases, destabilize region, military budg

by nxzero 10y ago

America wants Democratic People's Republic of Korea (aka North Korea) around just as much as China does; excuse to have bases, destabilize region, military budget, etc. EDIT: Feel free to comment if you disagree, but this is not my opinion, but that of pretty much anyone I've ever spoken with from Korea (North & South). For that matter, if you believe the US is welcome in Japan, pull up Google Maps, find an US AirForce base in Japan, then read what's write on the roofs of buildings around the bases; here's a hint, doesn't read "Thank you" or "Please stay."

dave2000 10y ago
America has bases all around the world; nothing to do with North Korea.
marcoperaza 10y ago
The US is the guarantor of stability in the region. The problems with the base in Japan are classic NIMBYism, and I don't blame the residents. A bunch of boisterous 20 year old Americans will probably disturb a peaceful Japanese town. Is the US claiming vast swaths of other country's territorial waters and building military bases on artificial islands? No, that's China. The US defends the countries that China is trying to bully that way. South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, America. Seems like a righteous alliance of free people defending themselves against evil from China and North Korea. The evil of a boot stomping on a human face for eternity. Edit: Any arguments from the downvoters?
- webkike 10y ago
  Calling people shills does not enhance your argument.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    True. Particularly, "paid shills". Anti- or pro-Western, commenters seldom are paid for writing; even if you disagree strongly, remember that they probably write out of a personal conviction.
    - marcoperaza 10y ago
      Russia and China have massive online propaganda operations that include manipulating English-language forums. It's something to be aware of. I'm especially suspect when three people rapid fire downvote but there's no response. I didn't accuse the poster I replied to of being a paid shill. I removed the sentence from my edit because it's just served to distract from the content. And it's just as likely, or more likely, to be a bunch of self-motivated idiots.
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        Yes, that is true, and the impact is visible in some discussions. The paid operators maintain web sites, twitter feeds etc that direct the attention of sympathetic activists (perhaps "fellow travellers"), but a vast majority of them surely are not paid. I doubt that HN has large enough following in Russia or its sphere of influence to attract people that would actually be paid to downvote. I do agree that it is sometimes frustrating that people downvote without commenting and offering any other views (which, if void of positive contribution, would expose them themselves to downvotes).
        golergka 10y ago
        HN is exactly the kind of strategic target for these guys. HN is not widely read in Russia, but it's widely read by power users, people who translate and re-print tech news on russian websites, etc. Hell, I'd say that half of decent articles from Habrahabr (one of most influencial russian collective blogs on tech) are translations from HN frontage. So, it's only natural to create a left-leaning, anti-US climate in a website like HN and others.
        Aelinsaar 10y ago
        It's also almost religiously policed by people who don't seem likely to appreciate shills.
        golergka 10y ago
- krapp 10y ago
  > A bunch of boisterous 20 year old Americans will probably disturb a peaceful Japanese town. Maybe you should at least read up on the history of Okinawa's occupation before writing the effect of America's presence there off as "boisterous 20 year old Americans." How would Americans feel if China invaded California, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians in the process of occupying the land by force, completely destroying the local culture and economy, raping and killing more or less without consequence, and then never left? You can argue (probably correctly) that the US presence in Japan has done a lot of good and that it's necessary for Asian stability, but I wouldn't write off any anger or hostility that might be there as NIMBYism. They have legitimate complaints about the way the US has conducted themselves.
  - marcoperaza 10y ago
    >How would Americans feel if China invaded California, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians in the process of occupying the land by force, completely destroying the local culture and economy, raping and killing more or less without consequence, and then never left? Your analogy is incomplete because you left out the part where this fictional America conquered all of its neighbors and engaged in mass rape and murder and was in the process of attempting global domination in tandem with the Nazis. And if you're referring to the nuclear bombings, then perhaps you aren't aware that the US had encountered nothing but total violent resistance from Japanese populations that they had occupied. An invasion of the mainland would have been an absolute blood bath, and Japan refused to surrender.
    - dagw 10y ago
      No one is defending the actions of Japan during WW2 nor are we arguing about whether or not what the US did then was justifies. Even if we take it as a given that the US where 100% in the right and Japan 100% in the wrong up through 1945, that was 70 years ago and I can certainly imagine the locals feeling like they are very much paying for the sins of their (grand)fathers.
    - nxzero 10y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Okinawa_rape_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Okinawa_rape_incident
webkike 10y ago
I found Yokoto air force base did not have anything written on any of the roofs. And even then, what would I need to see to believe you? "The US military is in full support of the North Korean dictatorship?"
- mlvljr 10y ago
  Hoolywood is -- remember the last campaign (+ the Red Dawn reboot with NK as agressor)? :)
peteretep 10y ago
I suspect the comment about "destabilize region" is what's getting your downvoted, as there's no evidence for that and it assumes bad faith.

by nxzero 10y ago

dave2000 10y ago

America has bases all around the world; nothing to do with North Korea.

marcoperaza 10y ago

The US is the guarantor of stability in the region. The problems with the base in Japan are classic NIMBYism, and I don't blame the residents. A bunch of boisterous 20 year old Americans will probably disturb a peaceful Japanese town. Is the US claiming vast swaths of other country's territorial waters and building military bases on artificial islands? No, that's China. The US defends the countries that China is trying to bully that way. South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, America. Seems like a righteous alliance of free people defending themselves against evil from China and North Korea. The evil of a boot stomping on a human face for eternity. Edit: Any arguments from the downvoters?

webkike 10y ago
Calling people shills does not enhance your argument.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  True. Particularly, "paid shills". Anti- or pro-Western, commenters seldom are paid for writing; even if you disagree strongly, remember that they probably write out of a personal conviction.
  - marcoperaza 10y ago
    Russia and China have massive online propaganda operations that include manipulating English-language forums. It's something to be aware of. I'm especially suspect when three people rapid fire downvote but there's no response. I didn't accuse the poster I replied to of being a paid shill. I removed the sentence from my edit because it's just served to distract from the content. And it's just as likely, or more likely, to be a bunch of self-motivated idiots.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      Yes, that is true, and the impact is visible in some discussions. The paid operators maintain web sites, twitter feeds etc that direct the attention of sympathetic activists (perhaps "fellow travellers"), but a vast majority of them surely are not paid. I doubt that HN has large enough following in Russia or its sphere of influence to attract people that would actually be paid to downvote. I do agree that it is sometimes frustrating that people downvote without commenting and offering any other views (which, if void of positive contribution, would expose them themselves to downvotes).
      - golergka 10y ago
        HN is exactly the kind of strategic target for these guys. HN is not widely read in Russia, but it's widely read by power users, people who translate and re-print tech news on russian websites, etc. Hell, I'd say that half of decent articles from Habrahabr (one of most influencial russian collective blogs on tech) are translations from HN frontage. So, it's only natural to create a left-leaning, anti-US climate in a website like HN and others.
        Aelinsaar 10y ago
        It's also almost religiously policed by people who don't seem likely to appreciate shills.
        golergka 10y ago
krapp 10y ago
> A bunch of boisterous 20 year old Americans will probably disturb a peaceful Japanese town. Maybe you should at least read up on the history of Okinawa's occupation before writing the effect of America's presence there off as "boisterous 20 year old Americans." How would Americans feel if China invaded California, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians in the process of occupying the land by force, completely destroying the local culture and economy, raping and killing more or less without consequence, and then never left? You can argue (probably correctly) that the US presence in Japan has done a lot of good and that it's necessary for Asian stability, but I wouldn't write off any anger or hostility that might be there as NIMBYism. They have legitimate complaints about the way the US has conducted themselves.
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  >How would Americans feel if China invaded California, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians in the process of occupying the land by force, completely destroying the local culture and economy, raping and killing more or less without consequence, and then never left? Your analogy is incomplete because you left out the part where this fictional America conquered all of its neighbors and engaged in mass rape and murder and was in the process of attempting global domination in tandem with the Nazis. And if you're referring to the nuclear bombings, then perhaps you aren't aware that the US had encountered nothing but total violent resistance from Japanese populations that they had occupied. An invasion of the mainland would have been an absolute blood bath, and Japan refused to surrender.
  - dagw 10y ago
    No one is defending the actions of Japan during WW2 nor are we arguing about whether or not what the US did then was justifies. Even if we take it as a given that the US where 100% in the right and Japan 100% in the wrong up through 1945, that was 70 years ago and I can certainly imagine the locals feeling like they are very much paying for the sins of their (grand)fathers.
  - nxzero 10y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Okinawa_rape_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Okinawa_rape_incident

webkike 10y ago

I found Yokoto air force base did not have anything written on any of the roofs. And even then, what would I need to see to believe you? "The US military is in full support of the North Korean dictatorship?"

mlvljr 10y ago
Hoolywood is -- remember the last campaign (+ the Red Dawn reboot with NK as agressor)? :)

peteretep 10y ago

I suspect the comment about "destabilize region" is what's getting your downvoted, as there's no evidence for that and it assumes bad faith.