3 ms·

So the only kind of "science" that could prove this works is to layer on so many confounding effects and other variables that it'd be impossible to tell what, i

So the only kind of "science" that could prove this works is to layer on so many confounding effects and other variables that it'd be impossible to tell what, if anything, is happening. Gee, I wonder why rational people are skeptical of that. And to answer your question, no, I do not believe that alternative health systems "developed" over thousands of years work. If they work, then they're medicine. We only use the term alternative health to define things that are too magical to have their effects show up when studied using the scientific method. And barring the ability to collect some reliable data on their efficacy, then yes, they're bullshit by default. What other reliable framework for evaluating them could I possibly have?

carapace 10y ago
We have to come up with something rigorous to deal with these sorts of things. Whether you call it "science" or not we still have to come to grips with "weird shit". I know a guy. He's a healer. He can do things that Western science has absolutely no idea about. In point of fact several people who were diagnosed with cancer have worked with him and afterwards were no longer diagnosed with cancer. This is factual. Yet good luck getting people in general to take this seriously. No one wants to hear it. My mom's neighbour had breast cancer, she beat it with conventional medicine, more power to her. But she refused even to think about anything outside of the established system. For her it worked. Personally, I'm very frustrated. I come from a strongly scientific background, so when I meet a person who can fucking cure fucking cancer I would really like to see the scientific establishment take that seriously. But whatever. I can take some consolation that at least my family and I don't have to worry about cancer, even if I can do nothing to change the zeitgeist of society. For those of you wondering why this guy wouldn't try to spread the word, well, first of all he does! He talks to anyone he meets and is not shy about it at all. The limiting factor is the people who don't want to hear about crazy shit. (P.S. If you have cancer and want to talk to my healer friend I can put you in touch. He's in Europe now and kind of retired, and I haven't spoken to him in a year or so, but if you truly need help and feel that this guy is "the one" you can contact me and I'll see about putting you in touch.)
- ryanwaggoner 10y ago
  This is factual. Well, no, it's not. From my perspective, this is yet another random anecdote from the Internet. It's no different to me than someone saying they can turn base metals into gold, hear the voice of God directly, or travel to alternate dimensions. And even from YOUR perspective, you have no idea what's fact and what's not. Apparently this healer is so powerful that your family need not worry about cancer. But I suspect you have little hard evidence of any actual healing, no proposed mechanisms that make any sense, and no ability to reproduce any of this. The amazing thing about the scientific method is that it gives us a framework to separate claims from reality. If you have a better framework then please share it. But there seems to be little value to a framework built on "I know a guy, trust me." We had that for thousands of years. Health care under such a framework was pretty rough.
reddytowns 10y ago
I'm not arguing that the scientific method is invalid. Just that it's applied in a way today that is typically unable to prove or disprove if alternative medicine works or not. The shaman might tell you, I look into their eyes and if I see a slight yellowness I know X. Then I measure their pulse and that tells me Y. So based on that I prescribe medicine A at dose B. Now if someone designed a study that first separated people into a category where both X and Y are true, and then gave only those people the medicine the shaman recommended, you'd have a real test. But this isn't done. Humanity has produced great things before the scientific method existed, agriculture, smelting, sea travel, etc., including the scientific method, itself! How can you reconcile this fact with your proclamation that anything related to medicine, a body of knowledge produced from the same people at the same period of time is all bullshit?

carapace 10y ago

We have to come up with something rigorous to deal with these sorts of things. Whether you call it "science" or not we still have to come to grips with "weird shit". I know a guy. He's a healer. He can do things that Western science has absolutely no idea about. In point of fact several people who were diagnosed with cancer have worked with him and afterwards were no longer diagnosed with cancer. This is factual. Yet good luck getting people in general to take this seriously. No one wants to hear it. My mom's neighbour had breast cancer, she beat it with conventional medicine, more power to her. But she refused even to think about anything outside of the established system. For her it worked. Personally, I'm very frustrated. I come from a strongly scientific background, so when I meet a person who can fucking cure fucking cancer I would really like to see the scientific establishment take that seriously. But whatever. I can take some consolation that at least my family and I don't have to worry about cancer, even if I can do nothing to change the zeitgeist of society. For those of you wondering why this guy wouldn't try to spread the word, well, first of all he does! He talks to anyone he meets and is not shy about it at all. The limiting factor is the people who don't want to hear about crazy shit. (P.S. If you have cancer and want to talk to my healer friend I can put you in touch. He's in Europe now and kind of retired, and I haven't spoken to him in a year or so, but if you truly need help and feel that this guy is "the one" you can contact me and I'll see about putting you in touch.)

ryanwaggoner 10y ago
This is factual. Well, no, it's not. From my perspective, this is yet another random anecdote from the Internet. It's no different to me than someone saying they can turn base metals into gold, hear the voice of God directly, or travel to alternate dimensions. And even from YOUR perspective, you have no idea what's fact and what's not. Apparently this healer is so powerful that your family need not worry about cancer. But I suspect you have little hard evidence of any actual healing, no proposed mechanisms that make any sense, and no ability to reproduce any of this. The amazing thing about the scientific method is that it gives us a framework to separate claims from reality. If you have a better framework then please share it. But there seems to be little value to a framework built on "I know a guy, trust me." We had that for thousands of years. Health care under such a framework was pretty rough.

reddytowns 10y ago

I'm not arguing that the scientific method is invalid. Just that it's applied in a way today that is typically unable to prove or disprove if alternative medicine works or not. The shaman might tell you, I look into their eyes and if I see a slight yellowness I know X. Then I measure their pulse and that tells me Y. So based on that I prescribe medicine A at dose B. Now if someone designed a study that first separated people into a category where both X and Y are true, and then gave only those people the medicine the shaman recommended, you'd have a real test. But this isn't done. Humanity has produced great things before the scientific method existed, agriculture, smelting, sea travel, etc., including the scientific method, itself! How can you reconcile this fact with your proclamation that anything related to medicine, a body of knowledge produced from the same people at the same period of time is all bullshit?