5 ms·

R7RS-large kickoff, list membership, and voter registration process

84 points by groovy2shoes 10y ago

tluyben2 10y ago
Maybe it is me, but as the discussions here[0] about the relevance of Lisp etc which I blame largely on PR/Marketing unfold, I cringe when any announcements are on Google groups. It feels like projects who do their communications (even between devs) in Google Groups are not too much into current affairs and therefor ignored by people who do not know about the project beforehand. Again, maybe that's way off, but I find the interface horrible and dated and only ancient projects seem to use it... [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11698414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11698414
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Google groups are the best solution if you want to have a working mailing list without having to deal with setting up and maintaining a mail list server yourself (which is a non-trivial task and a serious responsibility). E-mail still stands unconquered as a practical tool for people who want to get things done with minimum bullshit. What else would you propose they use instead?
  - tluyben2 10y ago
    Github seems to work well. Including the use of email. And it allows for much better organization with not minimum but almost minimum bullshit.
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      Github how? I've yet to see Github being used well for any kind of discussion other than issues. Three major drawbacks compared to mailing lists: it's on-line, it's proprietary, it sucks for searching and filtering (seriously, the few tools it gives you are a fraction of what you get in any e-mail client).
      - tluyben2 10y ago
        You have good points; I was commenting on the use as issue tracker which projects seem to do and the use of the actual Google Groups interface. If you use it with an email client that's quite different and yes, you are right there although I don't find it optimal the non proprietary and online nature annoy me too. Maybe I shouldn't use the client and just sign up for the list and respond via email.
- eatonphil 10y ago
  > only ancient projects seem to use it... Do you mean like Golang? (https://golang.org/help/ https://golang.org/help/)
- davexunit 10y ago
  The big problem with Google groups is that it requires proprietary JavaScript in order to read the archive. I wish the Scheme standards community would care more about free software, but in my experience they just don't understand.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    Who said Scheme is all about free software? Or I missed the /s mark?
    - johncowan 10y ago
      In practice, proprietary Schemes have not survived unless they have become free software.
  - johncowan 10y ago
    We understand fine. The standard is freely available and reusable, the implementations are free software (now that Chez has become so), the process is as open as can be. If you'd rather maintain your own archive of posts, please do, and let us know where it is. As things stand, the posts that weren't on Google Groups lists have been lost because the person who volunteered to maintain them (I had no influence over that decision) didn't keep backups.
- panic 10y ago
  What mailing list service would you rather see used? I spent a while looking for one a few months ago. There didn't seem to be anything that was both easy-to-use and designed for multi-way communication (rather than designed to send one-way marketing email).
  - gkya 10y ago
    I haven't used it, but give a look: http://librelist.com/ http://librelist.com/
    - newjersey 10y ago
      Doesn't replace a mailing list but also consider a discourse community forum site (like phpBB) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_(software)
      - icebraining 10y ago
        Discourse is a big FU for people who want to read it on the go but don't have mobile Internet. Whereas with HN and phpBB I can easily save the pages offline, Discourse's "infinite scrolling" makes sure you can never save more than a few posts. The 5MB of JS that a single page like [1] forces one to download is just icing on the cake. [1] https://meta.discourse.org/t/cheap-docker-hosting/44262 https://meta.discourse.org/t/cheap-docker-hosting/44262
- eggy 10y ago
  I know what you mean, but what is interesting is that serious, new vs. old work, does not always correlate with a nice front end, or how it looks. Although, I have been following PicoLisp for years, and the site was just redone to look more modern. Didn't matter, since PicoLisp stands on its own for people who are interested in such a thing. The mailing list is direct and archived on at least two mail archival sites [1]. I also like J [2], and the Google Group gets less traffic than the individual direct email lists. As long as I can communicate, and stay current, I really don't care if the site looks good, as long as it is easy to navigate with old styling. [1] http://picolisp.com/wiki/?home http://picolisp.com/wiki/?home [2] jsoftware.com
  - tluyben2 10y ago
    I follow picolisp and J as well and I would consider them niches which have their fans and get referred by fans to newcomers. Both are great projects by the way.
    - eggy 10y ago
      Not sure what the relationship between niches and website appearance is here. I only care about quality, not quantity or popularity when selecting my tools for a task. There are people doing real work with both J and PicoLisp. Look at KDB+/Q. It is a highly effective time series database/language that is used by some of the largest companies, but could be called niche, yet the kx.com site is modern, but look at kxparc.com which is Arthur Whitney's site. He created A+, K and Q, and inspired J, yet the site is basically plain text and minimal, the beginnings of a desktop and server OS in K, KOS. BTW, J has Jd, a time series dbase with J as the built-in language of you're interested in that sort of stuff. I am more a "function over form" kind of guy, although I understand the importance of appearance and human interface designs.
krutulis 10y ago
In case you are a casual observer or are new to Scheme and are wondering why this might be particularly important to the language, wikipedia explains: "The R6RS standard has caused controversy because it is seen to have departed from the minimalist philosophy [of scheme]. In August 2009, the Scheme Steering Committee ... announced its intention to recommend splitting Scheme into two languages: a large modern programming language for programmers, and a subset of the large version retaining the minimalism praised by educators and casual implementors;"[1] Perhaps the history of Scheme standardization itself has something to teach us about the challenges and rewards of openly balancing a wide range of interests and agendas over the long term? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheme_(programming_language)#R7RS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheme_(programming_language)#...
- hvs 10y ago
  Any popular language that is going through a standardization process can teach us a lot. As opposed to languages that have "benevolent dictators" (Ruby, Python, etc), languages like Common Lisp, Scheme, C++ have all gone through standardization processes that often leave a lot to be desired. Unfortunately, that lesson usually learned is "don't do it", but I'm hoping that Scheme has righted the ship a bit and R7RS will be able to balance the goals of multiple diverse groups. The last thing we need is another Common Lisp.
  - chm 10y ago
    It's trivial to run R5RS in DrRacket, for example, or other Scheme implementations as well. So it shouldn't really be a problem if R7RS becomes bloated, as you can stay on R5.
    - hga 10y ago
      Well, note that this is about R7RS-large; R7RS-small is "a 'small' language, suitable for educators, researchers, and users of embedded languages, focused on R5RS compatibility" (http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/R7RSHomePage http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/R7RSHomePage see also http://www.scheme-reports.org/ http://www.scheme-reports.org/), its spirit is R5RS cleaned up and with a library feature to allow R7RS-large to be cleanly added.

84 points by groovy2shoes 10y ago

Maybe it is me, but as the discussions here[0] about the relevance of Lisp etc which I blame largely on PR/Marketing unfold, I cringe when any announcements are on Google groups. It feels like projects who do their communications (even between devs) in Google Groups are not too much into current affairs and therefor ignored by people who do not know about the project beforehand. Again, maybe that's way off, but I find the interface horrible and dated and only ancient projects seem to use it... [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11698414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11698414

TeMPOraL 10y ago
Google groups are the best solution if you want to have a working mailing list without having to deal with setting up and maintaining a mail list server yourself (which is a non-trivial task and a serious responsibility). E-mail still stands unconquered as a practical tool for people who want to get things done with minimum bullshit. What else would you propose they use instead?
- tluyben2 10y ago
  Github seems to work well. Including the use of email. And it allows for much better organization with not minimum but almost minimum bullshit.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Github how? I've yet to see Github being used well for any kind of discussion other than issues. Three major drawbacks compared to mailing lists: it's on-line, it's proprietary, it sucks for searching and filtering (seriously, the few tools it gives you are a fraction of what you get in any e-mail client).
    - tluyben2 10y ago
      You have good points; I was commenting on the use as issue tracker which projects seem to do and the use of the actual Google Groups interface. If you use it with an email client that's quite different and yes, you are right there although I don't find it optimal the non proprietary and online nature annoy me too. Maybe I shouldn't use the client and just sign up for the list and respond via email.
eatonphil 10y ago
> only ancient projects seem to use it... Do you mean like Golang? (https://golang.org/help/ https://golang.org/help/)
davexunit 10y ago
The big problem with Google groups is that it requires proprietary JavaScript in order to read the archive. I wish the Scheme standards community would care more about free software, but in my experience they just don't understand.
- coldtea 10y ago
  Who said Scheme is all about free software? Or I missed the /s mark?
  - johncowan 10y ago
    In practice, proprietary Schemes have not survived unless they have become free software.
- johncowan 10y ago
  We understand fine. The standard is freely available and reusable, the implementations are free software (now that Chez has become so), the process is as open as can be. If you'd rather maintain your own archive of posts, please do, and let us know where it is. As things stand, the posts that weren't on Google Groups lists have been lost because the person who volunteered to maintain them (I had no influence over that decision) didn't keep backups.
panic 10y ago
What mailing list service would you rather see used? I spent a while looking for one a few months ago. There didn't seem to be anything that was both easy-to-use and designed for multi-way communication (rather than designed to send one-way marketing email).
- gkya 10y ago
  I haven't used it, but give a look: http://librelist.com/ http://librelist.com/
  - newjersey 10y ago
    Doesn't replace a mailing list but also consider a discourse community forum site (like phpBB) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_(software)
    - icebraining 10y ago
      Discourse is a big FU for people who want to read it on the go but don't have mobile Internet. Whereas with HN and phpBB I can easily save the pages offline, Discourse's "infinite scrolling" makes sure you can never save more than a few posts. The 5MB of JS that a single page like [1] forces one to download is just icing on the cake. [1] https://meta.discourse.org/t/cheap-docker-hosting/44262 https://meta.discourse.org/t/cheap-docker-hosting/44262
eggy 10y ago
I know what you mean, but what is interesting is that serious, new vs. old work, does not always correlate with a nice front end, or how it looks. Although, I have been following PicoLisp for years, and the site was just redone to look more modern. Didn't matter, since PicoLisp stands on its own for people who are interested in such a thing. The mailing list is direct and archived on at least two mail archival sites [1]. I also like J [2], and the Google Group gets less traffic than the individual direct email lists. As long as I can communicate, and stay current, I really don't care if the site looks good, as long as it is easy to navigate with old styling. [1] http://picolisp.com/wiki/?home http://picolisp.com/wiki/?home [2] jsoftware.com
- tluyben2 10y ago
  I follow picolisp and J as well and I would consider them niches which have their fans and get referred by fans to newcomers. Both are great projects by the way.
  - eggy 10y ago
    Not sure what the relationship between niches and website appearance is here. I only care about quality, not quantity or popularity when selecting my tools for a task. There are people doing real work with both J and PicoLisp. Look at KDB+/Q. It is a highly effective time series database/language that is used by some of the largest companies, but could be called niche, yet the kx.com site is modern, but look at kxparc.com which is Arthur Whitney's site. He created A+, K and Q, and inspired J, yet the site is basically plain text and minimal, the beginnings of a desktop and server OS in K, KOS. BTW, J has Jd, a time series dbase with J as the built-in language of you're interested in that sort of stuff. I am more a "function over form" kind of guy, although I understand the importance of appearance and human interface designs.

krutulis 10y ago

In case you are a casual observer or are new to Scheme and are wondering why this might be particularly important to the language, wikipedia explains: "The R6RS standard has caused controversy because it is seen to have departed from the minimalist philosophy [of scheme]. In August 2009, the Scheme Steering Committee ... announced its intention to recommend splitting Scheme into two languages: a large modern programming language for programmers, and a subset of the large version retaining the minimalism praised by educators and casual implementors;"[1] Perhaps the history of Scheme standardization itself has something to teach us about the challenges and rewards of openly balancing a wide range of interests and agendas over the long term? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheme_(programming_language)#R7RS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheme_(programming_language)#...

hvs 10y ago
Any popular language that is going through a standardization process can teach us a lot. As opposed to languages that have "benevolent dictators" (Ruby, Python, etc), languages like Common Lisp, Scheme, C++ have all gone through standardization processes that often leave a lot to be desired. Unfortunately, that lesson usually learned is "don't do it", but I'm hoping that Scheme has righted the ship a bit and R7RS will be able to balance the goals of multiple diverse groups. The last thing we need is another Common Lisp.
- chm 10y ago
  It's trivial to run R5RS in DrRacket, for example, or other Scheme implementations as well. So it shouldn't really be a problem if R7RS becomes bloated, as you can stay on R5.
  - hga 10y ago
    Well, note that this is about R7RS-large; R7RS-small is "a 'small' language, suitable for educators, researchers, and users of embedded languages, focused on R5RS compatibility" (http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/R7RSHomePage http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/R7RSHomePage see also http://www.scheme-reports.org/ http://www.scheme-reports.org/), its spirit is R5RS cleaned up and with a library feature to allow R7RS-large to be cleanly added.