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If I really gave a damn, had 1000 bucks to blow, and had no life I could go plant hidden microphones, pinhole video cameras, and more in just about every concei

If I really gave a damn, had 1000 bucks to blow, and had no life I could go plant hidden microphones, pinhole video cameras, and more in just about every conceivable public place too. If anyone argued or brought me to court - I could demonstrate how this is absolutely no different than everyone "secondhand recording" me in their little snap stories and instagrams which do go online forever. My point is, this is some small potatoes 1980's style shit that is nothing compared to NSA Echelon (which I find to be actually a fascinating technology if it weren't so malleable to abuse by human nature) If Echelon were an independently operating AI system that had algorithms that identified criminal activity, then used soft paternalism in the form coercing unaware law enforcement personnel into making "chance" encounters with would-be criminals (random traffic stop, or passing them by on the street), the psychology of the criminal would be to stop doing whatever their doing because they feel more watched when they are doing said crime; although the law enforcement agent may never be directly aware of the criminals communications or conduct. I can deal with surveillance all day, no sweat. Totalitarian censorship is my problem, and that doesn't appear to be happening stateside.

morganvachon 10y ago
> If Echelon were an independently operating AI system that had algorithms that identified criminal activity, then used soft paternalism in the form coercing unaware law enforcement personnel into making "chance" encounters with would-be criminals (random traffic stop, or passing them by on the street), the psychology of the criminal would be to stop doing whatever their doing because they feel more watched when they are doing said crime; although the law enforcement agent may never be directly aware of the criminals communications or conduct. You just described the main antagonist ("Samaritan") in the show Person of Interest. It is a rogue AI that records everything, determines threat level, then "nudges" police and even private citizens to take action against what it sees as a threat (in this show, the protagonists trying to stop the evil organization using the neutral Samaritan for evil deeds). Samaritan itself isn't evil, but in the hands of tyrannical masters, it is a deadly weapon and nearly a god (omnipresent, omniscient and almost omnipotent). This show has been riding the cutting edge of real life espionage and rogue government programs since it debuted.
optforfon 10y ago
finally a voice a reason! I actually think the tech world's outrage is the equivalent of survivalist doomsday paranoia. In their minds once the evil government people have our data it's just a slippery slope to fascism. (the survivalist at least have their guns! so they can go shoot cops that day) Of course grounding yourself in reality you should realize that a 1984-dystopia-scifi government is effectively impossible in an advanced educated society. While people are mildly annoyed by databases (and that's why nothing gets done to stop them) - people have always been outraged when the government abuses those databases. Societies that are way further along in terms of mass surveillance (ex: Singapore) aren't on the verge of dystopia.
- meddlepal 10y ago
  I think you're onto something there with that comparison to survalist doomsday scenarios. Some people have very vivid imaginations and they fail to see how there theory is basically impossible and then when challenged they fall back to some trope about slippery slopes.
  - optforfon 10y ago
    I think in some part it's actually a part of a bigger American cultural trope. We also have this unique obsessions with zombies and pandemics etc. etc. Kinda thinking I'm special, the rest of the riff raff die and I'm left alone to "make it" from a feral rock bottom. My guess is it's American individualism and it's unique inflated sense of self worth (not to knock it =] it's got its plus sides!) + fascination with the biblical apocalypse. I'm not as familiar as I should be with the faiths of the founders of the colonies, maybe it's something that traces back to then?
jflatow 10y ago
What makes you think you could do that? Given your stance, I suppose you would be OK with censorship too, assuming it was monitored by a soft paternalistic AI intended only to 'protect' people? Unfortunately we don't have any AI like what you described, and history has proven time and again that governments abuse powers like this to their own advantage.
alva 10y ago
> My point is, this is some small potatoes 1980's style shit that is nothing compared to NSA Echelon Absolutely. The "creep" factor of this however is more tangible to the general public so I imagine they will come under significantly more (relative to population size) pressure to answer for this. Microphones hidden under rocks are much easier to understand and perceive as an intrusion and threat, compared to the nature of Echelon
- jflatow 10y ago
  It's also eerily reminiscent of the Stasi era. Just take a trip to the Stasi museum next time you are Berlin and perhaps you'll freak out a little too. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/03/lessons-from-the-stasi/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/03/lessons-from-...

morganvachon 10y ago

> If Echelon were an independently operating AI system that had algorithms that identified criminal activity, then used soft paternalism in the form coercing unaware law enforcement personnel into making "chance" encounters with would-be criminals (random traffic stop, or passing them by on the street), the psychology of the criminal would be to stop doing whatever their doing because they feel more watched when they are doing said crime; although the law enforcement agent may never be directly aware of the criminals communications or conduct. You just described the main antagonist ("Samaritan") in the show Person of Interest. It is a rogue AI that records everything, determines threat level, then "nudges" police and even private citizens to take action against what it sees as a threat (in this show, the protagonists trying to stop the evil organization using the neutral Samaritan for evil deeds). Samaritan itself isn't evil, but in the hands of tyrannical masters, it is a deadly weapon and nearly a god (omnipresent, omniscient and almost omnipotent). This show has been riding the cutting edge of real life espionage and rogue government programs since it debuted.

optforfon 10y ago

finally a voice a reason! I actually think the tech world's outrage is the equivalent of survivalist doomsday paranoia. In their minds once the evil government people have our data it's just a slippery slope to fascism. (the survivalist at least have their guns! so they can go shoot cops that day) Of course grounding yourself in reality you should realize that a 1984-dystopia-scifi government is effectively impossible in an advanced educated society. While people are mildly annoyed by databases (and that's why nothing gets done to stop them) - people have always been outraged when the government abuses those databases. Societies that are way further along in terms of mass surveillance (ex: Singapore) aren't on the verge of dystopia.

meddlepal 10y ago
I think you're onto something there with that comparison to survalist doomsday scenarios. Some people have very vivid imaginations and they fail to see how there theory is basically impossible and then when challenged they fall back to some trope about slippery slopes.
- optforfon 10y ago
  I think in some part it's actually a part of a bigger American cultural trope. We also have this unique obsessions with zombies and pandemics etc. etc. Kinda thinking I'm special, the rest of the riff raff die and I'm left alone to "make it" from a feral rock bottom. My guess is it's American individualism and it's unique inflated sense of self worth (not to knock it =] it's got its plus sides!) + fascination with the biblical apocalypse. I'm not as familiar as I should be with the faiths of the founders of the colonies, maybe it's something that traces back to then?

jflatow 10y ago

What makes you think you could do that? Given your stance, I suppose you would be OK with censorship too, assuming it was monitored by a soft paternalistic AI intended only to 'protect' people? Unfortunately we don't have any AI like what you described, and history has proven time and again that governments abuse powers like this to their own advantage.

alva 10y ago

> My point is, this is some small potatoes 1980's style shit that is nothing compared to NSA Echelon Absolutely. The "creep" factor of this however is more tangible to the general public so I imagine they will come under significantly more (relative to population size) pressure to answer for this. Microphones hidden under rocks are much easier to understand and perceive as an intrusion and threat, compared to the nature of Echelon

jflatow 10y ago
It's also eerily reminiscent of the Stasi era. Just take a trip to the Stasi museum next time you are Berlin and perhaps you'll freak out a little too. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/03/lessons-from-the-stasi/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/03/lessons-from-...