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> What's the plan for replacing work after this new era arrives? Who cares? Anybody sees a problem with automating away so many jobs that unemployment rises t

> What's the plan for replacing work after this new era arrives? Who cares? Anybody sees a problem with automating away so many jobs that unemployment rises to 50% and beyond? Unemployment is not a problem. It's how we deal with it that is. You just can't expect everyone to work when machines do all the work. So… how about we all work less? What about a 4 days work-week, or even 3? How about automating so much work that voluntary community service becomes enough? We need to think about it soon, because the current model is not pretty: just let the jobless starve, and lock them up (or out) when they start to demand jobs or (gasp!) money. And if things get ugly, send the army bots. "Shoot on sight" is pretty easy to automate, if you don't care to discriminate. > hey didn't popularize the notion that 1% of the population would own all the robots. The heart of the problem, really. To this, I see only one solution: abolishing lucrative property, communist scare crow be dammed.

mgrpowers 10y ago
When I ask my peers (mid-twenties) about the concept of basic income they freak out at the concept of people not working. Unfortunately it's going to take a few more generations to understand we need to rethink the next steps of someone entering adulthood.
- snuxoll 10y ago
  It doesn't help that capitalism is so ingrained in our culture. Go to good school, get a worthwhile degree to make yourself a valuable commodity (don't ever pretend you aren't a commodity, that's all labor is) and if you're lucky you will live a good life. The thought of not having to WORK, to be BETTER than the competition just doesn't make sense to a lot of people. While I just made a comment on reddit not more than an hour ago that humans are a naturally cooperative species, ultimately our base instincts are still to compete for resources to rise above our peers (even if we may help our own in the process). It's going to take a lot of social training to make people comfortable with the fact that we are rapidly approaching a post-scarcity world where the traditional model of growth-fueled capitalism falls apart (and it will happen, Earth can only sustain so many humans at a time).
  - icebraining 10y ago
    It doesn't help that capitalism is so ingrained in our culture. On the contrary, capitalism is all about owning and deploying capital (including assets like robots) to produce an income beyond one's own labor. UBI is essentially a plan to eliminate the working class, turning everyone into capitalists :)
- ThrustVectoring 10y ago
  They're arguably right to freak out. It takes a certain kind of life experience to think about, build, and maintain the systems we rely on to provide the necessities of life. It's probably not a great idea to destroy our society's ability to create adults without some kind of replacement path. As an aside, I'm tentatively in support of basic income. This is one of the two major points that I worry about, along with rent-seeking behavior. The tl;dr of that argument is the mechanization of agriculture has already freed up tons of man-hours of labor, and the end result of that was systematic reaction that made living in a developed country approximately as expensive as poor people can afford if they work as hard as they have been.
alphapapa 10y ago
> Who cares? Anybody sees a problem with automating away so many jobs that unemployment rises to 50% and beyond? Unemployment is not a problem. It's how we deal with it that is. You just can't expect everyone to work when machines do all the work. It's amazing how some humans seem to have a complete lack of understanding of human nature. Imagine a world in which 50% of people worked, and the other half lived on basic welfare income. How do you think the 50% that worked would feel about the other half? Do you think perhaps they might feel used? Do you think they might feel like slave labor? Do you think they might feel like the other half was taking advantage of them? Do you think they might be resentful of their earnings being taken away and given to people who don't work? How are things going right now when people have this idea that there's a 99:1 division in society? How do you think people would get along with a 50:50 hard division? Can you imagine a better setup for societal unrest and class warfare? Can you imagine a society in which half the population thinks they're entitled to have the other half work to support them? It'd be like a modern-day version of slavery, setting society up for a civil war. Communism used "the workers!" as one of its foundational elements--now imagine a world in which "the workers" are legally half of the population, and they decide they're tired of being taken advantage of, and they decide to assert themselves and their rights, go on strike, refuse to work, even revolt. And imagine the other half of the population, which thinks they're entitled to be supported by the other half, decides to assert themselves and demand what they think they're entitled to (if they're still capable of doing anything besides sitting in their VR headsets). This is not wild imagination, this is history and human nature applied to your ideas, their logical conclusion. > I see only one solution: abolishing lucrative property Want to have a nice house with a yard to raise your family in? Nope. Panelák for you. Want to work hard, save up, and buy a little cabin on the lake for your retirement? Nope. Too lucrative. > communist scare crow be dammed. Approximately one hundred million people (100,000,000 people) have been killed by Communist regimes. But we're better humans now, right? We'll get it right this time. Just need to put the right people in charge and everything will be fine. Communism doesn't always turn corrupt, I mean, just look at the present-day Communist regimes of China, Cuba, and North Korea. Those governments aren't corrupt or evil, and their citizens are free, healthy, and happy. Nothing to be afraid of. Damn the scarecrows, full speed ahead!
- onion2k 10y ago
nojvek 10y ago
I don't really think working 3-4 hours for a majority of population will ever become a reality. The biggest expense the working class have is usually rent/mortgage. If everyone makes good money then the prices are guaranteed to go up. This is the biggest flaw that I also find with guaranteed basic income. At the end it will always sucked slowly up with those who own the land.
- icebraining 10y ago
  Thing is, land is expensive in cities, because everyone must live there. If you're free to move to anywhere you want without losing your income, suddenly the city landlords are competing with vast amounts of very cheap land. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the Land monopoly, but I don't think it's a real threat to UBI)
- loup-vaillant 10y ago
  This will only happen if we keep up with the current insanity that is corporate capitalism. There must be other ways. We could freeze prices for instance. If we don't find a solution, inequality will rise until we get a violent revolution, or a police state to keep the poor in check. I think neither of these outcomes is much better than the "communism" we got in the USSR.
visarga 10y ago
> You just can't expect everyone to work when machines do all the work. Wrong. When those unemployed people won't be able to buy anything produced by the robots because they don't have money, there is only one option left: If people want to work, they still can. They can work for themselves! They can use technology that is still available to aid them in their work to earn a living. A small patch of land could feed many. Unemployed people could team up to form collectives and grow their own food, install solar panels and other energy generation devices, barter with other humans for skilled services. Basically we can still do everything we can do today, but robots will also offer stuff at low price. If people are driven to the point where they can't even work to save themselves from poverty, not even if they work for themselves directly, then we will have a revolution on our hands. That could happen if wealth becomes even more concentrated at the top, and this usually happens when there are technological leaps that bring temporary advantages (monopoly) to a company.

mgrpowers 10y ago

When I ask my peers (mid-twenties) about the concept of basic income they freak out at the concept of people not working. Unfortunately it's going to take a few more generations to understand we need to rethink the next steps of someone entering adulthood.

snuxoll 10y ago
It doesn't help that capitalism is so ingrained in our culture. Go to good school, get a worthwhile degree to make yourself a valuable commodity (don't ever pretend you aren't a commodity, that's all labor is) and if you're lucky you will live a good life. The thought of not having to WORK, to be BETTER than the competition just doesn't make sense to a lot of people. While I just made a comment on reddit not more than an hour ago that humans are a naturally cooperative species, ultimately our base instincts are still to compete for resources to rise above our peers (even if we may help our own in the process). It's going to take a lot of social training to make people comfortable with the fact that we are rapidly approaching a post-scarcity world where the traditional model of growth-fueled capitalism falls apart (and it will happen, Earth can only sustain so many humans at a time).
- icebraining 10y ago
  It doesn't help that capitalism is so ingrained in our culture. On the contrary, capitalism is all about owning and deploying capital (including assets like robots) to produce an income beyond one's own labor. UBI is essentially a plan to eliminate the working class, turning everyone into capitalists :)
ThrustVectoring 10y ago
They're arguably right to freak out. It takes a certain kind of life experience to think about, build, and maintain the systems we rely on to provide the necessities of life. It's probably not a great idea to destroy our society's ability to create adults without some kind of replacement path. As an aside, I'm tentatively in support of basic income. This is one of the two major points that I worry about, along with rent-seeking behavior. The tl;dr of that argument is the mechanization of agriculture has already freed up tons of man-hours of labor, and the end result of that was systematic reaction that made living in a developed country approximately as expensive as poor people can afford if they work as hard as they have been.

alphapapa 10y ago

> Who cares? Anybody sees a problem with automating away so many jobs that unemployment rises to 50% and beyond? Unemployment is not a problem. It's how we deal with it that is. You just can't expect everyone to work when machines do all the work. It's amazing how some humans seem to have a complete lack of understanding of human nature. Imagine a world in which 50% of people worked, and the other half lived on basic welfare income. How do you think the 50% that worked would feel about the other half? Do you think perhaps they might feel used? Do you think they might feel like slave labor? Do you think they might feel like the other half was taking advantage of them? Do you think they might be resentful of their earnings being taken away and given to people who don't work? How are things going right now when people have this idea that there's a 99:1 division in society? How do you think people would get along with a 50:50 hard division? Can you imagine a better setup for societal unrest and class warfare? Can you imagine a society in which half the population thinks they're entitled to have the other half work to support them? It'd be like a modern-day version of slavery, setting society up for a civil war. Communism used "the workers!" as one of its foundational elements--now imagine a world in which "the workers" are legally half of the population, and they decide they're tired of being taken advantage of, and they decide to assert themselves and their rights, go on strike, refuse to work, even revolt. And imagine the other half of the population, which thinks they're entitled to be supported by the other half, decides to assert themselves and demand what they think they're entitled to (if they're still capable of doing anything besides sitting in their VR headsets). This is not wild imagination, this is history and human nature applied to your ideas, their logical conclusion. > I see only one solution: abolishing lucrative property Want to have a nice house with a yard to raise your family in? Nope. Panelák for you. Want to work hard, save up, and buy a little cabin on the lake for your retirement? Nope. Too lucrative. > communist scare crow be dammed. Approximately one hundred million people (100,000,000 people) have been killed by Communist regimes. But we're better humans now, right? We'll get it right this time. Just need to put the right people in charge and everything will be fine. Communism doesn't always turn corrupt, I mean, just look at the present-day Communist regimes of China, Cuba, and North Korea. Those governments aren't corrupt or evil, and their citizens are free, healthy, and happy. Nothing to be afraid of. Damn the scarecrows, full speed ahead!

onion2k 10y ago

nojvek 10y ago

I don't really think working 3-4 hours for a majority of population will ever become a reality. The biggest expense the working class have is usually rent/mortgage. If everyone makes good money then the prices are guaranteed to go up. This is the biggest flaw that I also find with guaranteed basic income. At the end it will always sucked slowly up with those who own the land.

icebraining 10y ago
Thing is, land is expensive in cities, because everyone must live there. If you're free to move to anywhere you want without losing your income, suddenly the city landlords are competing with vast amounts of very cheap land. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the Land monopoly, but I don't think it's a real threat to UBI)
loup-vaillant 10y ago
This will only happen if we keep up with the current insanity that is corporate capitalism. There must be other ways. We could freeze prices for instance. If we don't find a solution, inequality will rise until we get a violent revolution, or a police state to keep the poor in check. I think neither of these outcomes is much better than the "communism" we got in the USSR.

visarga 10y ago

> You just can't expect everyone to work when machines do all the work. Wrong. When those unemployed people won't be able to buy anything produced by the robots because they don't have money, there is only one option left: If people want to work, they still can. They can work for themselves! They can use technology that is still available to aid them in their work to earn a living. A small patch of land could feed many. Unemployed people could team up to form collectives and grow their own food, install solar panels and other energy generation devices, barter with other humans for skilled services. Basically we can still do everything we can do today, but robots will also offer stuff at low price. If people are driven to the point where they can't even work to save themselves from poverty, not even if they work for themselves directly, then we will have a revolution on our hands. That could happen if wealth becomes even more concentrated at the top, and this usually happens when there are technological leaps that bring temporary advantages (monopoly) to a company.