5 ms·

I love this approach. It would be great to have 100s of these on more or less predefined trajectories, but without a set schedule. Just press a button and one s

by trgn 10y ago

I love this approach. It would be great to have 100s of these on more or less predefined trajectories, but without a set schedule. Just press a button and one shows up a few minutes later, perhaps with already some passengers going similar routes. It could help anchor urban development, something a pure self driving car would not too, and the absence of a set schedule removes the biggest drawback of public transportation. They can also just use existing roads, no need to construct a separate track. I hope these things would help introduce affordable public transportation in many US cities, and actually be useful and practical.

kuschku 10y ago
> the absence of a set schedule removes the biggest drawback of public transportation I’d argue that having no schedule is even worse. With a set schedule, I can just go to the stop, wait a minute, and a bus will come – most lines are running every 5 or 10 minutes anyway (or 15 to 20min in the suburbs). With this, the situation would get a lot worse, I’d have higher waiting times, less of a guarantee that one would come (what if there’s not enough demand?), etc.
- erik 10y ago
  Bus coverage in my city is nowhere near this good. High frequency routes are every 15min. Most are 30min, and some routes only run every hour. On demand with some delay would be a huge improvement.
- jfoutz 10y ago
  With an uber like indicator of wait time, it seems like it would be tolerable. If a bus is guaranteed to show up in 20 minutes, i can make use of those 20 minutes. Fundamentally though, it's a density/diffusion problem. Having enough rides available in the right spots is tough. Especially when, say 10% of riders go way off in the sticks, with no need for pickups out there. You want a nice random distribution of rider routes, but really, people go east in the morning, and west in the evening (for example), so a lot of capacity is unused just getting back to where demand is. tricky tricky problem. schedules and defined routes are part of the solution, for sure.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    Indeed. A uber-like waiting indicator is actually already existing in about all cities – either per app or website (like http://kvg-kiel.de/fahrplan/echtzeit/#?stop=52 http://kvg-kiel.de/fahrplan/echtzeit/#?stop=52 ) or as an actual display at the bus stop (like http://www.kvg-kiel.de/yaml/gfx/submenu/fahrplan.jpg http://www.kvg-kiel.de/yaml/gfx/submenu/fahrplan.jpg ). And many cities already have on-demand busses (mine calls them ALiTa or "Anruflinientaxi", pretty much meaning "taxi that operate as bus line on demand via calling a phone number". But an especially important part, as you mentioned, is knowing for sure when the next bus will come – even without looking at the display – so you can plan for that, and use that time.
    - snuxoll 10y ago
      This is one area I've been rather happy with using HERE Maps for, I put in my destination and my desired arrival time and the vast majority of the time I get a workable route on public transit that has only failed me a handful of times (I've always allotted myself extra time to avoid human error, so the few times it's been wrong I've still gotten to my destination with time to spare). Even Muni (which most locals seem to complain about) didn't give me many troubles, but my local municipality is junk for public transit so maybe I'm way more lenient than most.
    - pampa 10y ago
      In Moscow all buses are equipped with GPS/GLONASS trackers and there is an app, Yandex.Transport, that shows you where all the buses are. It is hard to keep a precise schedule in traffic, but with the app you always know how far away the next bus is.
      - kuschku 10y ago
        That’s what they do here as well, but the app just calculates how far the busses are off schedule based on the GLONASS and GPS data. If you look at the raw data for each stop, you see this: http://www.kvg-kiel.de/internetservice/services/passageInfo/stopPassages/stop?stop=52&mode=departure http://www.kvg-kiel.de/internetservice/services/passageInfo/... "plannedTime": "11:00", vs. "actualTime": "11:02", This is a pretty awesome solution that ensures the numbers actually are useful, and that everyone can easily understand them (without having to look at a map and find where the route is).
- DKnoll 10y ago
  >> the absence of a set schedule removes the biggest drawback of public transportation >With a set schedule, I can just go to the stop, wait a minute, and a bus will come – most lines are running every 5 or 10 minutes anyway (or 15 to 20min in the suburbs). Your European is showing... ;) In Canada and the US, except some core routes in the urban centre of major cities, you will never see 5 to 10 minute frequency. I feel like this lack of schedule would have far more benefit for North American commuters.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    Indeed. And it’s a good thing that for those people we now have the technology to improve things. But considering what Uber tried to do, I’m pretty sure it will happen again that people try to force US concepts on European cities, and people here get angry because they lose products and services they like, and get worse alternatives. Which is also a case whenever Google buys a startup and turns a "globally available" service into an "available everywhere – in the US" service.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      But considering what Uber tried to do How do? Did they force people to use them?
      - kuschku 10y ago
        No, but they tried to eliminate their competition with unfair business practices (predatory pricing, for example, driving without insurance, etc). The result was that, without them being banned from doing that, they'd have been able to provide a cheaper product, which, for the average customer would not have been better, but long-term, would have reduced the quality of service.
        icebraining 10y ago
        So if the product isn't better for the average customer, they can just ignore it, no? Why be angry?
sokoloff 10y ago
> the absence of a set schedule removes the biggest drawback of public transportation. I'm wagering that most everyone who thinks this way is mentally comparing against their most familiar American city. In Germany and Switzerland (and probably others), the trains and buses run on a schedule, and if a train is more than about 30 seconds late, you'll see the locals starting to anxiously cross-check their watches with each other. When you can plan down to the minute, using public transport becomes much more convenient and efficient (This is easier with trains than buses, though the buses do stop and wait at stops until it's time for them to proceed).
- ghshephard 10y ago
  Alternatively, if it's like Singapore, and you are on a common route, and the busses are basically coming by every 2-3 minutes, you don't even bother planning - you just show up and in a minute or two get on whatever bus is going your way. It's good enough, that I don't even bother to hurry across the street when I see my bus pulling up to a stop, because I know another one will be right behind it fairly soon.
  - laacz 10y ago
    However, many people are not on common route. You still have to get to that route.
    - ghshephard 10y ago
      My one non-negotiable requirement when finding a place to live in Singapore (Well, two after Air Conditioner) - isn't an oven, or hot water in the kitchen, or even my own washroom - but I won't live more than 15 minutes walk away from a major bus route or MRT station. The government is working hard to make that a reality for the entire population.

by trgn 10y ago

kuschku 10y ago

> the absence of a set schedule removes the biggest drawback of public transportation I’d argue that having no schedule is even worse. With a set schedule, I can just go to the stop, wait a minute, and a bus will come – most lines are running every 5 or 10 minutes anyway (or 15 to 20min in the suburbs). With this, the situation would get a lot worse, I’d have higher waiting times, less of a guarantee that one would come (what if there’s not enough demand?), etc.

erik 10y ago
Bus coverage in my city is nowhere near this good. High frequency routes are every 15min. Most are 30min, and some routes only run every hour. On demand with some delay would be a huge improvement.
jfoutz 10y ago
With an uber like indicator of wait time, it seems like it would be tolerable. If a bus is guaranteed to show up in 20 minutes, i can make use of those 20 minutes. Fundamentally though, it's a density/diffusion problem. Having enough rides available in the right spots is tough. Especially when, say 10% of riders go way off in the sticks, with no need for pickups out there. You want a nice random distribution of rider routes, but really, people go east in the morning, and west in the evening (for example), so a lot of capacity is unused just getting back to where demand is. tricky tricky problem. schedules and defined routes are part of the solution, for sure.
- kuschku 10y ago
  Indeed. A uber-like waiting indicator is actually already existing in about all cities – either per app or website (like http://kvg-kiel.de/fahrplan/echtzeit/#?stop=52 http://kvg-kiel.de/fahrplan/echtzeit/#?stop=52 ) or as an actual display at the bus stop (like http://www.kvg-kiel.de/yaml/gfx/submenu/fahrplan.jpg http://www.kvg-kiel.de/yaml/gfx/submenu/fahrplan.jpg ). And many cities already have on-demand busses (mine calls them ALiTa or "Anruflinientaxi", pretty much meaning "taxi that operate as bus line on demand via calling a phone number". But an especially important part, as you mentioned, is knowing for sure when the next bus will come – even without looking at the display – so you can plan for that, and use that time.
  - snuxoll 10y ago
    This is one area I've been rather happy with using HERE Maps for, I put in my destination and my desired arrival time and the vast majority of the time I get a workable route on public transit that has only failed me a handful of times (I've always allotted myself extra time to avoid human error, so the few times it's been wrong I've still gotten to my destination with time to spare). Even Muni (which most locals seem to complain about) didn't give me many troubles, but my local municipality is junk for public transit so maybe I'm way more lenient than most.
  - pampa 10y ago
    In Moscow all buses are equipped with GPS/GLONASS trackers and there is an app, Yandex.Transport, that shows you where all the buses are. It is hard to keep a precise schedule in traffic, but with the app you always know how far away the next bus is.
    - kuschku 10y ago
      That’s what they do here as well, but the app just calculates how far the busses are off schedule based on the GLONASS and GPS data. If you look at the raw data for each stop, you see this: http://www.kvg-kiel.de/internetservice/services/passageInfo/stopPassages/stop?stop=52&mode=departure http://www.kvg-kiel.de/internetservice/services/passageInfo/... "plannedTime": "11:00", vs. "actualTime": "11:02", This is a pretty awesome solution that ensures the numbers actually are useful, and that everyone can easily understand them (without having to look at a map and find where the route is).
DKnoll 10y ago
>> the absence of a set schedule removes the biggest drawback of public transportation >With a set schedule, I can just go to the stop, wait a minute, and a bus will come – most lines are running every 5 or 10 minutes anyway (or 15 to 20min in the suburbs). Your European is showing... ;) In Canada and the US, except some core routes in the urban centre of major cities, you will never see 5 to 10 minute frequency. I feel like this lack of schedule would have far more benefit for North American commuters.
- kuschku 10y ago
  Indeed. And it’s a good thing that for those people we now have the technology to improve things. But considering what Uber tried to do, I’m pretty sure it will happen again that people try to force US concepts on European cities, and people here get angry because they lose products and services they like, and get worse alternatives. Which is also a case whenever Google buys a startup and turns a "globally available" service into an "available everywhere – in the US" service.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    But considering what Uber tried to do How do? Did they force people to use them?
    - kuschku 10y ago
      No, but they tried to eliminate their competition with unfair business practices (predatory pricing, for example, driving without insurance, etc). The result was that, without them being banned from doing that, they'd have been able to provide a cheaper product, which, for the average customer would not have been better, but long-term, would have reduced the quality of service.
      - icebraining 10y ago
        So if the product isn't better for the average customer, they can just ignore it, no? Why be angry?

sokoloff 10y ago

> the absence of a set schedule removes the biggest drawback of public transportation. I'm wagering that most everyone who thinks this way is mentally comparing against their most familiar American city. In Germany and Switzerland (and probably others), the trains and buses run on a schedule, and if a train is more than about 30 seconds late, you'll see the locals starting to anxiously cross-check their watches with each other. When you can plan down to the minute, using public transport becomes much more convenient and efficient (This is easier with trains than buses, though the buses do stop and wait at stops until it's time for them to proceed).

ghshephard 10y ago
Alternatively, if it's like Singapore, and you are on a common route, and the busses are basically coming by every 2-3 minutes, you don't even bother planning - you just show up and in a minute or two get on whatever bus is going your way. It's good enough, that I don't even bother to hurry across the street when I see my bus pulling up to a stop, because I know another one will be right behind it fairly soon.
- laacz 10y ago
  However, many people are not on common route. You still have to get to that route.
  - ghshephard 10y ago
    My one non-negotiable requirement when finding a place to live in Singapore (Well, two after Air Conditioner) - isn't an oven, or hot water in the kitchen, or even my own washroom - but I won't live more than 15 minutes walk away from a major bus route or MRT station. The government is working hard to make that a reality for the entire population.