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> “If the company benefits more than the consumer, I would call it ‘evil design,’” said Mr. Nodder, who wrote a book on the topic called “Evil by Design.” That

> “If the company benefits more than the consumer, I would call it ‘evil design,’” said Mr. Nodder, who wrote a book on the topic called “Evil by Design.” That is stunningly poor reasoning. It doesn't matter whether a company benefits more than you do as long as you are not harmed. Not all games are zero-sum. Thinking you should be getting more or equal to the other party is not harm, it's envy.

exodust 10y ago
I would say it does matter if a company benefits more than I do, but makes out like it doesn't. Any fair transaction should surely balance? In the end, nobody likes being deceived or presented with false information, even happy customers.
- 13of40 10y ago
  > Any fair transaction should surely balance? I don't think that's true, because a company could have the means to do something profitably that an individual couldn't. For example, I just changed the toner cartridges on my printer, and HP provided UPS stickers so I can send the old ones back for "recycling", which is obviously just them filling them back up and selling them to someone else. Let's assume they just made $20 on the deal. That doesn't mean I'd have $20 if I'd kept them, because to me, lacking a factory to refurbish them, they're just garbage. Same goes for all of that personal information Google and Facebook make money on -- you can't go down to the pawn shop and sell your own information, because it only matters in bulk.
  - xg15 10y ago
    Except it's not always easy to see if you're actually harmed or not. In the toner case, the UPS sticker is also a (very gentle) nudge away from trying to refill the cartridge yourself using a cheaper service. As for the personal information, there is an entertaining talk[1] by Pinboard's Maciej Cegłowski about how we can't even know if collected personal information will at some point come back to hurt you or not. [1] http://idlewords.com/talks/haunted_by_data.htm http://idlewords.com/talks/haunted_by_data.htm
- golemotron 10y ago
  So not revealing your upside is deception?
  - exodust 10y ago
    Well... yes, it is! Nothing like transparency to keep me as a loyal customer.
cortesoft 10y ago
Yeah, if the situation is pareto-superior, then who cares if the company benefits more?

exodust 10y ago

I would say it does matter if a company benefits more than I do, but makes out like it doesn't. Any fair transaction should surely balance? In the end, nobody likes being deceived or presented with false information, even happy customers.

13of40 10y ago
> Any fair transaction should surely balance? I don't think that's true, because a company could have the means to do something profitably that an individual couldn't. For example, I just changed the toner cartridges on my printer, and HP provided UPS stickers so I can send the old ones back for "recycling", which is obviously just them filling them back up and selling them to someone else. Let's assume they just made $20 on the deal. That doesn't mean I'd have $20 if I'd kept them, because to me, lacking a factory to refurbish them, they're just garbage. Same goes for all of that personal information Google and Facebook make money on -- you can't go down to the pawn shop and sell your own information, because it only matters in bulk.
- xg15 10y ago
  Except it's not always easy to see if you're actually harmed or not. In the toner case, the UPS sticker is also a (very gentle) nudge away from trying to refill the cartridge yourself using a cheaper service. As for the personal information, there is an entertaining talk[1] by Pinboard's Maciej Cegłowski about how we can't even know if collected personal information will at some point come back to hurt you or not. [1] http://idlewords.com/talks/haunted_by_data.htm http://idlewords.com/talks/haunted_by_data.htm
golemotron 10y ago
So not revealing your upside is deception?
- exodust 10y ago
  Well... yes, it is! Nothing like transparency to keep me as a loyal customer.

cortesoft 10y ago

Yeah, if the situation is pareto-superior, then who cares if the company benefits more?