7 ms·

Ask HN : Have you ever programmed with threads?

9 points by dan_sim 17y ago

Everyone knows about how threads are hard to program with but I don't know a lot of people who really used them. If yes, tell us on which occasion (personal project, enterprise app, startup).

NickPollard 17y ago
I've worked on projects that use threads before, but this week I started actually writing threaded code myself for the first time on a pet project (real time ray tracer). I understand much of the theory but without practice it's hard to know what to do, and so far my profiling has shown that my attempts at threading are slowing down the program, so I've still got a lot to learn.
- jbooth 17y ago
  Try to make the handoffs between threads as coarse-grained as possible. Passing data between threads means your thread acquires some lock, leaves the data there, then the other thread has to acquire the lock before getting the data -- both situations could involve a thread blocking and going to "blocked", then "runnable", then finally at some point in the future actually being executed and doing their work. If the tasks you're parcelling out are too fine grained and require too much communication, the scheduling overhead will outweigh the parallelism -- and you could be getting effectively singlethreaded performance plus overhead.
spooneybarger 17y ago
There is nothing worse than being the person who gets called in to fix the failing threaded code that was written by someone who sort of knows threading but not really. I've been saying it for years, most people can not hold all the information they need together to write a complicated threaded system. It is hard and most people do not keep the level of concentration and focus required to use threads beyond trivial to simple use cases.
Roridge 17y ago
With mutli-core CPU now almost ubiquitous Threading is completely essential (outside of a GUI). I can't imagine developing a scalable application without threads. There is a language called Fantom which purports to be "thread safe" I believe by serializing objects between threads, so the data in the objects could easily become stale if not designed correctly.
wendroid 17y ago
It's easy with CSP http://www.usingcsp.com/ http://www.usingcsp.com/ Esp. if your language has primitives for it e.g. Erlang, Limbo, Go Or C libs e.g Plan9, libtask
hga 17y ago
For a startup, Visual C++ in 1997-8. Challenging, certainly, especially when supposedly thread-safe libraries turn out not to be, but quite rewarding.
binarymax 17y ago
Yes, on personal and enterprise. Mostly just used for releasing the UI while the app is doing the dirty work...but on several occasions got lots of speed boosts by pooling db connections and shredding complex files on different threads, also doing image generation for video by hijacking 100% of my CPU to build frames as quickly as possible. Not for the impatient -- No room for progress bars :)
patio11 17y ago
I've done quite a bit of work in Java in threads. They're not as bad as people say if you know what you're doing. However, like memory management, they're really easy to mistakenly believe you actually know what you're doing. The downloadable version of BCC uses threads in at least three ways: the embedded HTTP client runs in its own thread (to avoid blocking the GUI), the printing logic runs in its own thread (ditto), and about a dozen threads do a bit of a dance to verify the Registration Key. (Took me about an hour to code up -- probably wasted time.) The online version of BCC just handles everything by process separation and message passing. I prefer this model to threads, as it imposes rigid discipline about data sharing/sychronization/etc, and it makes it easier for my brain to grok the consequences of changes which look trivial.
hunterjrj 17y ago
I developed a Windows service in C# that would listen for TCP connections, spin off a new thread and perform a text to speech translation as required. I'm not university educated, so the biggest hurdle for me was becoming familiar with mutexes and semaphores.
silverlake 17y ago
Concurrency is easy for most projects if you stick to simple design patterns. It is hard for very high-performance programs.
ww520 17y ago
A lot of time. Work parallelization, network servers, P2P, UI background workers, long running reports, etc. Mostly in C++ and Java. It's really not too bad. One thing to remember is to stick with simple design. Another thing is to stick with lower level API, the one the OS or language provides. Avoid high level library. If you can't avoid, insist to have the source code. There might be bugs are in the library. Also the high level library tends to have sparse documentation to document their behavior in detail. In multi-thread programming, you need to know every detail and every assumption about the API.
nailer 17y ago
Yes. Enterprise glueware. Python 2.6 Queue() objects just worked for my dataset.
jbooth 17y ago
All the time -- in Java, if you use java.util.concurrent, you don't have to deal with much of the complexity -- a LinkedBlockingQueue and producer-consumer pattern will solve 80% of real-world business threading problems just fine. If you need to go beyond that, you've gotta make sure you understand the java memory model and the way monitors work -- or just put synchronized everywhere -- but that's still pretty straightforward once you get it all straight.
- Quarrelsome 17y ago
  "or just put synchronized everywhere" Won't you deadlock this way?
  - jbooth 17y ago
    Depends on what you're doing. Synchronized locks on the instance (or class if you're using a static method) and the locks are reentrant -- a thread holding a lock can reacquire it as many times as it wants. But yeah my comment was a little imprecise :) If you're using a bunch of different objects which have interactions, using synchronized "everywhere" could very well lead to a deadlock :)
  - GrandMasterBirt 17y ago
    That statement was oversimplified. Its funny I've actually hit head on people who didnt understand "critical sections" and such and just added synchronized everywhere and even that didnt help because they were locking an independent object vs a shared object that had to be locked in order to create a critical section. So yea read up on multithreading, its extremely important to know, but hey my friend worked 4 yrs in .net and just started learning multithreading. So its not always needed.
gte910h 17y ago
Multi threaded servers on video dispatch devices. Simulations of processors. Convertions to processes from threads for a video display utility. Embedded display utility. Robotic control devices. They're a hammer. I suggest people also learn the screwdriver (process based development) well enough they can make a choice between nails and screwdrivers.
kogir 17y ago
All the time. Almost every asynchronous call in .NET uses the process threadpool. Also, anything with a UI typically needs to use a least a few worker threads to remain response while doing real work.
scumola 17y ago
Mostly personal projects. A web crawler (multiple crawl threads) and a graphical display (network thread, rendering thread, periodic data processing thread).
tptacek 17y ago
'99-'01, a streaming video app-layer multicast startup, the client SDK (serverside we were pure evented) --- thread-per-session, worker thread to drive an event loop. Most memorable: debugging thread serialization in Quantify; even after you got to correctness, you still had weeks of effort to make sure things were actually parallelized. Next gig, did multi-process with shared memory (think "opt-in" concurrency instead of "opt-out") and modelled synchronization on distributed systems concepts (commit protocols) instead of locks. Worked peachy.
waterlesscloud 17y ago
Enterprise bank transaction processing software, late 90s. Communications software as part of the same system. Visual C++ The multithreading was much easier than I had expected based on the way people talk about it.
locopati 17y ago
For those doing Java coding, this is _the_ book to have http://www.amazon.com/Java-Concurrency-Practice-Brian-Goetz/dp/0321349601/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267814994&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Java-Concurrency-Practice-Brian-Goetz/... You never know when that library designed without threads in mind will end up in a threaded environment (which one could argue is part of the problem with leaving concurrency up to the coder in the way that Java does, versus building it into the language the way Erlang does).
abyssknight 17y ago
Java, for a class I took in my senior year. We were asked to write a Diffie-Hellman key exchanging chat application. I used threads to do non-blocking user input. After turning it in, the professor remarked that it didn't need to run continuously, but that my work was good. :)
nathanb 17y ago
I've used everything from pthreads to goroutines to Those Things That Ruby 1.8 Calls Threads Even Though They're Not Really. It's not that multithreaded code is inherently hard, it's just that it increases the number of interactions you have to think about exponentially. If you're used to thinking of programs as a procedural set of state manipulations, you will be incapable of reasoning about a multiprocessing system because between every two steps in your algorithm there can be an arbitrary number of steps from other algorithms which will wreak havoc with your state.
rledge21 17y ago
At least 3 different classes had me using threads at some point(c, pthreads library). I had to write 2 different web servers. Both were multi-threaded. One had to serve static files from a directory, the other needed to implement a simple web service outlined by the teacher. For a separate grade, we had to make the web service one implement a threadpool. I've also played with Ruby 'threads'(not really threads). For a databases class, I made a simple youtube-like clone that let users upload, tag, and comment on videos. When a video was uploaded, I needed to convert it to a flash-compatible format. I spawned a separate thread to handle this. If there were a bunch of people all uploading around the same time, you would end up with lots of extra threads hanging around converting video. I realized that this idea would never scale when I made it, but the timeframe given for the project didn't really allow me to implement a more scalable solution. I used a library off github called Spawn. On the subject, I recently saw a great talk by Joe Damato and Aman Gupta at the Ruby Hoedown in Nashville covering different threading models. Some of their code has made it into Ruby Enterprise Edition.
heresy 17y ago
Yes, but we've actually had to switch from threads to a fork() model for reliability reasons, in our main usage scenario. Our C# software has to integrate with buggy third party C++ plugins which amongst other things may crash or completely fragment the address space (hello OutOfMemoryException when there is 1GB free).
- Quarrelsome 17y ago
  Any chance you're using WinCE and are loading graphical resources? There's a bug somewhere that makes that incorrectly OOM. There are workarounds though.
balding_n_tired 17y ago
Yes, most recently with GUIs where the the graphical bits can't just sit there. Work-related but hardly enterprise.
threepointone 17y ago
Does event-based programming in javascript count? If so, then yes. Also, it's ridiculously easy then. Setting up mutexes are a cinch with closures.
Quarrelsome 17y ago
Er.... like almost all the time. Getting used to them means that you read code in a slightly different way as well, so I highly recommend it. That said, I do try to avoid them as long as it doesn't degrade user experience. However if you're going to build an app of any great consequence you're probably going to need them. A big help (if you're new to them) is viewing the threads as players in a turn based board game where your lines of code are squares on the board and everyone gets a random roll. Some uses (personal (of various sizes) and enterprise): - Background worker that wanders off, does some shit and then says: "yo, I finished". - Subsystems and services: Sometimes you just have "stuff" that is going on. An example would be a little doohickey I got monitoring the USB. It handles a little protocol so it can identify stuff our system knows about that gets plugged in (on any port). This is so when the "main" part of the app asks for an "external XYZ" device it can return the device (or a "null" Object if it is not connected). - To preserve your intentions: If you broadcast events with your own thread it is possible for a consumer to chomp on your thread's processing time, so sometimes you need to spin off a background thread/s to do the event firing to free you up so you get back to your job.
GrandMasterBirt 17y ago
Personal - Tried some multithreaded problems for the fun of it. Professional - Had to write a program which reads multiple files simultaniously and shoves all the data into multiple sockets which go to different machines to process the data in parallel, after which the data is queried from multiple machines into one result set. Or Having multiple machines open a socket to a central server, send information to it via sockets. The server then reads all sockets whenever data is available and shove status updates into a single in-memory data model which is queried once a second by each client connected to the server. In any case, multithreaded programming is cool. Where else do you get to write test cases that start 1000 threads in a loop 100 times to ensure that funky race conditions have a high probability of occurring. What's worse is right now I have to write non-multi threaded code which is multi threaded. A wierd thing. Basically there is no way for me to write multithreaded code BUT my events get triggered in parallel so any framework I write that can be accessed by multiple requests all of which can happen at once require a sort of setup, store in session, clone, modify, execute methodology. Edit: I tried some multithreading in ruby, when porting between different VMs (1.8 vs 1.9 vs jruby) the code started going into deadlocks. Strangely my code was written to be deadlock proof. Anyone know any really good reading on RUBY multithreading / multiprocessing?
kbob 17y ago
More times than I can count. Usually pthreads, a few times with Python threads, and also with various proprietary threading systems. Both for work and pleasure.
rksprst 17y ago
Used them for different parts of the code for my startup. I haven't used threads before working on my startup, but I couldn't live without them now. They're essential to many parts...
braindead_in 17y ago
In my plugin for Skype. The encoding happens in a separate thread. There are also lots of other places threads are used. http://callgraph.biz http://callgraph.biz
mantas 17y ago
In both my own and contracted apps on iPhone and Mac.
tetha 17y ago
My bachelor thesis was about extending a threaded execution environment for a multithreaded programming language. The language basically had the semantics of building up a network of concurrent communicating boxes. I had to extend this to have a certain scheduling layer between the boxes and actual threads (which previously was a 1:1 mapping).
kennu 17y ago
Asynchronous I/O is a very compelling alternative to the traditional threading approach, when your app is more I/O intensive than CPU intensive. It's also very scalable since you don't have to fill your memory with separate stacks for each thread and other overhead. I recently wrote some server software around the Linux epoll() system call and found it simple and effective to use. It's rewarding to eliminate all locking and think in terms of processing queues. I've also used AIO for async disk operations and it has worked nicely.

9 points by dan_sim 17y ago

Everyone knows about how threads are hard to program with but I don't know a lot of people who really used them. If yes, tell us on which occasion (personal project, enterprise app, startup).

NickPollard 17y ago

I've worked on projects that use threads before, but this week I started actually writing threaded code myself for the first time on a pet project (real time ray tracer). I understand much of the theory but without practice it's hard to know what to do, and so far my profiling has shown that my attempts at threading are slowing down the program, so I've still got a lot to learn.

jbooth 17y ago
Try to make the handoffs between threads as coarse-grained as possible. Passing data between threads means your thread acquires some lock, leaves the data there, then the other thread has to acquire the lock before getting the data -- both situations could involve a thread blocking and going to "blocked", then "runnable", then finally at some point in the future actually being executed and doing their work. If the tasks you're parcelling out are too fine grained and require too much communication, the scheduling overhead will outweigh the parallelism -- and you could be getting effectively singlethreaded performance plus overhead.

spooneybarger 17y ago

There is nothing worse than being the person who gets called in to fix the failing threaded code that was written by someone who sort of knows threading but not really. I've been saying it for years, most people can not hold all the information they need together to write a complicated threaded system. It is hard and most people do not keep the level of concentration and focus required to use threads beyond trivial to simple use cases.

Roridge 17y ago

With mutli-core CPU now almost ubiquitous Threading is completely essential (outside of a GUI). I can't imagine developing a scalable application without threads. There is a language called Fantom which purports to be "thread safe" I believe by serializing objects between threads, so the data in the objects could easily become stale if not designed correctly.

wendroid 17y ago

It's easy with CSP http://www.usingcsp.com/ http://www.usingcsp.com/ Esp. if your language has primitives for it e.g. Erlang, Limbo, Go Or C libs e.g Plan9, libtask

hga 17y ago

For a startup, Visual C++ in 1997-8. Challenging, certainly, especially when supposedly thread-safe libraries turn out not to be, but quite rewarding.

binarymax 17y ago

Yes, on personal and enterprise. Mostly just used for releasing the UI while the app is doing the dirty work...but on several occasions got lots of speed boosts by pooling db connections and shredding complex files on different threads, also doing image generation for video by hijacking 100% of my CPU to build frames as quickly as possible. Not for the impatient -- No room for progress bars :)

patio11 17y ago

I've done quite a bit of work in Java in threads. They're not as bad as people say if you know what you're doing. However, like memory management, they're really easy to mistakenly believe you actually know what you're doing. The downloadable version of BCC uses threads in at least three ways: the embedded HTTP client runs in its own thread (to avoid blocking the GUI), the printing logic runs in its own thread (ditto), and about a dozen threads do a bit of a dance to verify the Registration Key. (Took me about an hour to code up -- probably wasted time.) The online version of BCC just handles everything by process separation and message passing. I prefer this model to threads, as it imposes rigid discipline about data sharing/sychronization/etc, and it makes it easier for my brain to grok the consequences of changes which look trivial.

hunterjrj 17y ago

I developed a Windows service in C# that would listen for TCP connections, spin off a new thread and perform a text to speech translation as required. I'm not university educated, so the biggest hurdle for me was becoming familiar with mutexes and semaphores.

silverlake 17y ago

Concurrency is easy for most projects if you stick to simple design patterns. It is hard for very high-performance programs.

ww520 17y ago

A lot of time. Work parallelization, network servers, P2P, UI background workers, long running reports, etc. Mostly in C++ and Java. It's really not too bad. One thing to remember is to stick with simple design. Another thing is to stick with lower level API, the one the OS or language provides. Avoid high level library. If you can't avoid, insist to have the source code. There might be bugs are in the library. Also the high level library tends to have sparse documentation to document their behavior in detail. In multi-thread programming, you need to know every detail and every assumption about the API.

nailer 17y ago

Yes. Enterprise glueware. Python 2.6 Queue() objects just worked for my dataset.

jbooth 17y ago

All the time -- in Java, if you use java.util.concurrent, you don't have to deal with much of the complexity -- a LinkedBlockingQueue and producer-consumer pattern will solve 80% of real-world business threading problems just fine. If you need to go beyond that, you've gotta make sure you understand the java memory model and the way monitors work -- or just put synchronized everywhere -- but that's still pretty straightforward once you get it all straight.

Quarrelsome 17y ago
"or just put synchronized everywhere" Won't you deadlock this way?
- jbooth 17y ago
  Depends on what you're doing. Synchronized locks on the instance (or class if you're using a static method) and the locks are reentrant -- a thread holding a lock can reacquire it as many times as it wants. But yeah my comment was a little imprecise :) If you're using a bunch of different objects which have interactions, using synchronized "everywhere" could very well lead to a deadlock :)
- GrandMasterBirt 17y ago
  That statement was oversimplified. Its funny I've actually hit head on people who didnt understand "critical sections" and such and just added synchronized everywhere and even that didnt help because they were locking an independent object vs a shared object that had to be locked in order to create a critical section. So yea read up on multithreading, its extremely important to know, but hey my friend worked 4 yrs in .net and just started learning multithreading. So its not always needed.

gte910h 17y ago

Multi threaded servers on video dispatch devices. Simulations of processors. Convertions to processes from threads for a video display utility. Embedded display utility. Robotic control devices. They're a hammer. I suggest people also learn the screwdriver (process based development) well enough they can make a choice between nails and screwdrivers.

kogir 17y ago

All the time. Almost every asynchronous call in .NET uses the process threadpool. Also, anything with a UI typically needs to use a least a few worker threads to remain response while doing real work.

scumola 17y ago

Mostly personal projects. A web crawler (multiple crawl threads) and a graphical display (network thread, rendering thread, periodic data processing thread).

tptacek 17y ago

'99-'01, a streaming video app-layer multicast startup, the client SDK (serverside we were pure evented) --- thread-per-session, worker thread to drive an event loop. Most memorable: debugging thread serialization in Quantify; even after you got to correctness, you still had weeks of effort to make sure things were actually parallelized. Next gig, did multi-process with shared memory (think "opt-in" concurrency instead of "opt-out") and modelled synchronization on distributed systems concepts (commit protocols) instead of locks. Worked peachy.

waterlesscloud 17y ago

Enterprise bank transaction processing software, late 90s. Communications software as part of the same system. Visual C++ The multithreading was much easier than I had expected based on the way people talk about it.

locopati 17y ago

For those doing Java coding, this is _the_ book to have http://www.amazon.com/Java-Concurrency-Practice-Brian-Goetz/dp/0321349601/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267814994&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Java-Concurrency-Practice-Brian-Goetz/... You never know when that library designed without threads in mind will end up in a threaded environment (which one could argue is part of the problem with leaving concurrency up to the coder in the way that Java does, versus building it into the language the way Erlang does).

abyssknight 17y ago

Java, for a class I took in my senior year. We were asked to write a Diffie-Hellman key exchanging chat application. I used threads to do non-blocking user input. After turning it in, the professor remarked that it didn't need to run continuously, but that my work was good. :)

nathanb 17y ago

I've used everything from pthreads to goroutines to Those Things That Ruby 1.8 Calls Threads Even Though They're Not Really. It's not that multithreaded code is inherently hard, it's just that it increases the number of interactions you have to think about exponentially. If you're used to thinking of programs as a procedural set of state manipulations, you will be incapable of reasoning about a multiprocessing system because between every two steps in your algorithm there can be an arbitrary number of steps from other algorithms which will wreak havoc with your state.

rledge21 17y ago

At least 3 different classes had me using threads at some point(c, pthreads library). I had to write 2 different web servers. Both were multi-threaded. One had to serve static files from a directory, the other needed to implement a simple web service outlined by the teacher. For a separate grade, we had to make the web service one implement a threadpool. I've also played with Ruby 'threads'(not really threads). For a databases class, I made a simple youtube-like clone that let users upload, tag, and comment on videos. When a video was uploaded, I needed to convert it to a flash-compatible format. I spawned a separate thread to handle this. If there were a bunch of people all uploading around the same time, you would end up with lots of extra threads hanging around converting video. I realized that this idea would never scale when I made it, but the timeframe given for the project didn't really allow me to implement a more scalable solution. I used a library off github called Spawn. On the subject, I recently saw a great talk by Joe Damato and Aman Gupta at the Ruby Hoedown in Nashville covering different threading models. Some of their code has made it into Ruby Enterprise Edition.

heresy 17y ago

Yes, but we've actually had to switch from threads to a fork() model for reliability reasons, in our main usage scenario. Our C# software has to integrate with buggy third party C++ plugins which amongst other things may crash or completely fragment the address space (hello OutOfMemoryException when there is 1GB free).

Quarrelsome 17y ago
Any chance you're using WinCE and are loading graphical resources? There's a bug somewhere that makes that incorrectly OOM. There are workarounds though.

balding_n_tired 17y ago

Yes, most recently with GUIs where the the graphical bits can't just sit there. Work-related but hardly enterprise.

threepointone 17y ago

Does event-based programming in javascript count? If so, then yes. Also, it's ridiculously easy then. Setting up mutexes are a cinch with closures.

Quarrelsome 17y ago

Er.... like almost all the time. Getting used to them means that you read code in a slightly different way as well, so I highly recommend it. That said, I do try to avoid them as long as it doesn't degrade user experience. However if you're going to build an app of any great consequence you're probably going to need them. A big help (if you're new to them) is viewing the threads as players in a turn based board game where your lines of code are squares on the board and everyone gets a random roll. Some uses (personal (of various sizes) and enterprise): - Background worker that wanders off, does some shit and then says: "yo, I finished". - Subsystems and services: Sometimes you just have "stuff" that is going on. An example would be a little doohickey I got monitoring the USB. It handles a little protocol so it can identify stuff our system knows about that gets plugged in (on any port). This is so when the "main" part of the app asks for an "external XYZ" device it can return the device (or a "null" Object if it is not connected). - To preserve your intentions: If you broadcast events with your own thread it is possible for a consumer to chomp on your thread's processing time, so sometimes you need to spin off a background thread/s to do the event firing to free you up so you get back to your job.

GrandMasterBirt 17y ago

Personal - Tried some multithreaded problems for the fun of it. Professional - Had to write a program which reads multiple files simultaniously and shoves all the data into multiple sockets which go to different machines to process the data in parallel, after which the data is queried from multiple machines into one result set. Or Having multiple machines open a socket to a central server, send information to it via sockets. The server then reads all sockets whenever data is available and shove status updates into a single in-memory data model which is queried once a second by each client connected to the server. In any case, multithreaded programming is cool. Where else do you get to write test cases that start 1000 threads in a loop 100 times to ensure that funky race conditions have a high probability of occurring. What's worse is right now I have to write non-multi threaded code which is multi threaded. A wierd thing. Basically there is no way for me to write multithreaded code BUT my events get triggered in parallel so any framework I write that can be accessed by multiple requests all of which can happen at once require a sort of setup, store in session, clone, modify, execute methodology. Edit: I tried some multithreading in ruby, when porting between different VMs (1.8 vs 1.9 vs jruby) the code started going into deadlocks. Strangely my code was written to be deadlock proof. Anyone know any really good reading on RUBY multithreading / multiprocessing?

kbob 17y ago

More times than I can count. Usually pthreads, a few times with Python threads, and also with various proprietary threading systems. Both for work and pleasure.

rksprst 17y ago

Used them for different parts of the code for my startup. I haven't used threads before working on my startup, but I couldn't live without them now. They're essential to many parts...

braindead_in 17y ago

In my plugin for Skype. The encoding happens in a separate thread. There are also lots of other places threads are used. http://callgraph.biz http://callgraph.biz

mantas 17y ago

In both my own and contracted apps on iPhone and Mac.

tetha 17y ago

My bachelor thesis was about extending a threaded execution environment for a multithreaded programming language. The language basically had the semantics of building up a network of concurrent communicating boxes. I had to extend this to have a certain scheduling layer between the boxes and actual threads (which previously was a 1:1 mapping).

kennu 17y ago

Asynchronous I/O is a very compelling alternative to the traditional threading approach, when your app is more I/O intensive than CPU intensive. It's also very scalable since you don't have to fill your memory with separate stacks for each thread and other overhead. I recently wrote some server software around the Linux epoll() system call and found it simple and effective to use. It's rewarding to eliminate all locking and think in terms of processing queues. I've also used AIO for async disk operations and it has worked nicely.