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I'm referring to one specific core dev. However they all know each other from MIT so it makes it difficult for them to deal with that fact. I can point to 3 pub

I'm referring to one specific core dev. However they all know each other from MIT so it makes it difficult for them to deal with that fact. I can point to 3 public examples, in addition to a couple of private reports about problems which allow me to be certain. But admittedly it's all second hand to me (from people who work close to the language).

davidacoder 10y ago
I've been using julia for a little more than two years now. I've been subscribed to all the mailing lists and regularly read the github issues. Not all of them, but a fair share. I've never, ever seen any behavior by any of the core devs that one could even remotely describe as toxic, rude or anything like that. The community is actually really helpful and supportive. I have seen this point about a toxic dev been made before in some blog post. Back then I followed the story up because it seemed so at odds with my experience with the core devs. It took a bit of googling and following links, but in the end, in my mind, there was simply nothing to the whole story. The supposedly rude behavior was not at all rude, imho. I don't really know where these allegations come from, but I find this kind of "I've heard second hand that there is a toxic dev" inappropriate. If someone has a problem with someone, make it explicit, post the email that you dislike, so that others can judge themselves. But these vague accusations are not helpful, and at least from my point of view entirely at odds with how I have perceived the behavior of the core devs over the last two years. I should say that I'm not part of the MIT crowd. I've never met or talked with any of the core devs and don't know them beyond reading their emails on mailing lists and sporadic interactions on github.
- ScottPJones 10y ago
  The rude behavior definitely exists, I can point out a number of examples if you send me your e-mail address (you can look me up, @ScottPJones on GitHub, easily enough). I've seen that that sort of disrespectful behavior tends to spread in the community, unfortunately, when nobody dares call out one person for their comments and actions, because of their position.
  - chappi42 10y ago
    But then - as a bystander - let me mention that I once wondered about your insistent replies in some gh issue. God, can't he stop, I thought, and, wow, they have patience. Fortunately such a situation is rare and I'm very often impressed by the intelligent friendly conversations I see. A lot to learn.
    - ScottPJones 10y ago
      Yes, a year ago I'd never worked on any open source project, didn't use GitHub, Google Groups, Twitter, StackOverflow, or any of the other programmer social media sites, and was a total newbie about Julia, using git, and dealing with an open source community. Since I had convinced the other people at the startup where I am working that using Julia would be better for us than a mashup of Python, C, C++14, R or Octave, when I started encountering serious bugs and performance problems in areas that were critical to our development, I did get very insistent, esp. where I had lots of previous experience in the area. Instead of simply complaining about the problems, I submitted issues, wrote documentation, made PRs to fix the issues (in the Scheme parser code, in the core C code, in the C Unicode handling module, esp. to the string handling code in Base, and helped improve the coverage by adding a lot of unit tests). It was a major learning process for me, learning best practices for how to break apart a PR into smaller chunks (even though accepting huge PRs from other developers happens all the time), trying to focus on single issues in a PR, and trying to improve my own communications skills on social media. Between the time I started until early September when v0.4 was released, I'd even reached the point of being the #6 contributor to JuliaLang/julia (#26 all time out of some >400 contributors), so I don't think anybody could possibly accuse me of not having putting my time and effort where my mouth was, as far as fixing problems I encountered. Having gotten the critical issues fixed and into v0.4, so we had a reasonably stable base for our product, I was able to concentrate wholly on our product, and so stopped being so pushy about getting things fixed. ;) I still think there are some real systemic problems that need to be addressed, in how things are done, and hopefully some time will be spent to deal with that at this summer's JuliaCon 2016.
      - ced 10y ago
sgt101 10y ago
Perhaps you might consider adding a note to your first post making it clear that you are identifying a problem with one other person rather than the whole community and that this is all second hand rather than your own experience?
- SolarNet 10y ago
  You realize edit timers are a thing right?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

davidacoder 10y ago

I've been using julia for a little more than two years now. I've been subscribed to all the mailing lists and regularly read the github issues. Not all of them, but a fair share. I've never, ever seen any behavior by any of the core devs that one could even remotely describe as toxic, rude or anything like that. The community is actually really helpful and supportive. I have seen this point about a toxic dev been made before in some blog post. Back then I followed the story up because it seemed so at odds with my experience with the core devs. It took a bit of googling and following links, but in the end, in my mind, there was simply nothing to the whole story. The supposedly rude behavior was not at all rude, imho. I don't really know where these allegations come from, but I find this kind of "I've heard second hand that there is a toxic dev" inappropriate. If someone has a problem with someone, make it explicit, post the email that you dislike, so that others can judge themselves. But these vague accusations are not helpful, and at least from my point of view entirely at odds with how I have perceived the behavior of the core devs over the last two years. I should say that I'm not part of the MIT crowd. I've never met or talked with any of the core devs and don't know them beyond reading their emails on mailing lists and sporadic interactions on github.

ScottPJones 10y ago
The rude behavior definitely exists, I can point out a number of examples if you send me your e-mail address (you can look me up, @ScottPJones on GitHub, easily enough). I've seen that that sort of disrespectful behavior tends to spread in the community, unfortunately, when nobody dares call out one person for their comments and actions, because of their position.
- chappi42 10y ago
  But then - as a bystander - let me mention that I once wondered about your insistent replies in some gh issue. God, can't he stop, I thought, and, wow, they have patience. Fortunately such a situation is rare and I'm very often impressed by the intelligent friendly conversations I see. A lot to learn.
  - ScottPJones 10y ago
    Yes, a year ago I'd never worked on any open source project, didn't use GitHub, Google Groups, Twitter, StackOverflow, or any of the other programmer social media sites, and was a total newbie about Julia, using git, and dealing with an open source community. Since I had convinced the other people at the startup where I am working that using Julia would be better for us than a mashup of Python, C, C++14, R or Octave, when I started encountering serious bugs and performance problems in areas that were critical to our development, I did get very insistent, esp. where I had lots of previous experience in the area. Instead of simply complaining about the problems, I submitted issues, wrote documentation, made PRs to fix the issues (in the Scheme parser code, in the core C code, in the C Unicode handling module, esp. to the string handling code in Base, and helped improve the coverage by adding a lot of unit tests). It was a major learning process for me, learning best practices for how to break apart a PR into smaller chunks (even though accepting huge PRs from other developers happens all the time), trying to focus on single issues in a PR, and trying to improve my own communications skills on social media. Between the time I started until early September when v0.4 was released, I'd even reached the point of being the #6 contributor to JuliaLang/julia (#26 all time out of some >400 contributors), so I don't think anybody could possibly accuse me of not having putting my time and effort where my mouth was, as far as fixing problems I encountered. Having gotten the critical issues fixed and into v0.4, so we had a reasonably stable base for our product, I was able to concentrate wholly on our product, and so stopped being so pushy about getting things fixed. ;) I still think there are some real systemic problems that need to be addressed, in how things are done, and hopefully some time will be spent to deal with that at this summer's JuliaCon 2016.
    - ced 10y ago

sgt101 10y ago

Perhaps you might consider adding a note to your first post making it clear that you are identifying a problem with one other person rather than the whole community and that this is all second hand rather than your own experience?

SolarNet 10y ago
You realize edit timers are a thing right?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]