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If you look at super early OS X documents, it's interesting to see how highly regarded the Java development platform was held. For example: https://developer.a

by 0x0 10y ago

If you look at super early OS X documents, it's interesting to see how highly regarded the Java development platform was held. For example: https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Porting/Conceptual/PortingUnix/environments/environments.html https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Portin... Here, Java is a peer of Carbon and Cocoa. Also, IIRC, on the original OS X reveal presentation, Jobs flagged Java as deeply, natively integrated in a way that no other OS had done before (surely this is available on youtube but don't have a link handy) It would almost seem like they were betting half the farm on Java. I find it fascinating how fast Java was alienated from the mac given its initial deep embed. Even today, Oracle's JVM for OS X installs into the dedicated /Library/JavaVirtualMachines folder, something I've never seen anywhere else.

pjmlp 10y ago
I remember those days. As I also remember Apple sales people coming to CERN doing a presentation trying to sell us the idea that since Mac OS X was built on NeXT and BSD, it was also an UNIX that could be used by the researchers. In the early days of MacOS X, Apple wasn't sure that the Mac OS developer community would enjoy using Objective-C, so they bet the farm on both languages. As it became clear that the majority of the developers were quite happy to using Objective-C, they just slowly killed the Objective-C - Java bridge, and then eventually gave the JVM code to Oracle. This also helped killing the Java role on the desktop and together with Microsoft, started the industry cycle to move back into AOT compiled languages. I wonder how it would have turned out if they had killed Objective-C instead. On the other had, I also sometimes wonder how a Mac OS X based on BeOS ( C++ )would be.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >This also helped killing the Java role on the desktop and together with Microsoft, started the industry cycle to move back into AOT compiled languages. Well, it's not like Java ever did much to win the Desktop. Swing was a horrible over-engineered mess, performance was crap until GC improved and CPUs caught on in the mid-late 00s, and the desktop saw mostly neglect from SUN. >I wonder how it would have turned out if they had killed Objective-C instead And have all OS X userland apps being written in Java? Probably Apple would have been dead. Besides it's not like they killed Java among protests from developers -- the majority of developers and users "were quite happy to using Objective-C" as you said.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    Regarding Swing,it is quite possible to create beautiful applications with it, as I mentioned regarding the Filthy Rich Clients blog. The big problem, was that it required an effort to learn how to do it, which the majority of the developers weren't willing to do. I still don't understand why one needs to explicitly enable the native L&F. It should have been enabled by default.
coldtea 10y ago
>It would almost seem like they were betting half the farm on Java. I find it fascinating how fast Java was alienated from the mac given its initial deep embed. In those days (2000-2001) Java was the most hyped language on the planet, thanks to SUNs marketing efforts (and huge cash influx from the dot-com era and need for big servers). That's what motivated Apple. But the reality was, few developers ever cared to produce Mac apps in Java, and fewer users like those when they did appear. Despite the deep integration (which was mostly some hooks to native APIs), it was always an alien looking step-child on the platform.
- pavlov 10y ago
  The only Java Cocoa app I can remember using regularly is the FTP client Cyberduck. Looks like Cyberduck is still written in Java using the Cocoa bridge: https://trac.cyberduck.io/browser/trunk/osx/src/main/java/ch/cyberduck/ui/cocoa https://trac.cyberduck.io/browser/trunk/osx/src/main/java/ch...

by 0x0 10y ago

pjmlp 10y ago

I remember those days. As I also remember Apple sales people coming to CERN doing a presentation trying to sell us the idea that since Mac OS X was built on NeXT and BSD, it was also an UNIX that could be used by the researchers. In the early days of MacOS X, Apple wasn't sure that the Mac OS developer community would enjoy using Objective-C, so they bet the farm on both languages. As it became clear that the majority of the developers were quite happy to using Objective-C, they just slowly killed the Objective-C - Java bridge, and then eventually gave the JVM code to Oracle. This also helped killing the Java role on the desktop and together with Microsoft, started the industry cycle to move back into AOT compiled languages. I wonder how it would have turned out if they had killed Objective-C instead. On the other had, I also sometimes wonder how a Mac OS X based on BeOS ( C++ )would be.

coldtea 10y ago
>This also helped killing the Java role on the desktop and together with Microsoft, started the industry cycle to move back into AOT compiled languages. Well, it's not like Java ever did much to win the Desktop. Swing was a horrible over-engineered mess, performance was crap until GC improved and CPUs caught on in the mid-late 00s, and the desktop saw mostly neglect from SUN. >I wonder how it would have turned out if they had killed Objective-C instead And have all OS X userland apps being written in Java? Probably Apple would have been dead. Besides it's not like they killed Java among protests from developers -- the majority of developers and users "were quite happy to using Objective-C" as you said.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  Regarding Swing,it is quite possible to create beautiful applications with it, as I mentioned regarding the Filthy Rich Clients blog. The big problem, was that it required an effort to learn how to do it, which the majority of the developers weren't willing to do. I still don't understand why one needs to explicitly enable the native L&F. It should have been enabled by default.

coldtea 10y ago

>It would almost seem like they were betting half the farm on Java. I find it fascinating how fast Java was alienated from the mac given its initial deep embed. In those days (2000-2001) Java was the most hyped language on the planet, thanks to SUNs marketing efforts (and huge cash influx from the dot-com era and need for big servers). That's what motivated Apple. But the reality was, few developers ever cared to produce Mac apps in Java, and fewer users like those when they did appear. Despite the deep integration (which was mostly some hooks to native APIs), it was always an alien looking step-child on the platform.

pavlov 10y ago
The only Java Cocoa app I can remember using regularly is the FTP client Cyberduck. Looks like Cyberduck is still written in Java using the Cocoa bridge: https://trac.cyberduck.io/browser/trunk/osx/src/main/java/ch/cyberduck/ui/cocoa https://trac.cyberduck.io/browser/trunk/osx/src/main/java/ch...