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Agreed. We live in Canada. Our household income for a family of 3 is just over $125K and I certainly don't feel like we're "upper class". We can't even afford t

Agreed. We live in Canada. Our household income for a family of 3 is just over $125K and I certainly don't feel like we're "upper class". We can't even afford to buy a house where we live.

vox_mollis 10y ago
I live in a town in the US where the median household income is roughly $36k and the median household size is 3.9. Most adults own their home here. I know most HN people tend to see urban/suburban areas as the only habitable zones, but come on - you are definitely living high on the hog, it's just hard to see because you choose a location and lifestyle with very high expenses.
- g00gler 10y ago
  That's true, but what do you do for a living? I think it'd be significantly harder to find a job as a developer in the middle of nowhere, it's even hard to find an interesting job in the suburbs IME.
  - vox_mollis 10y ago
    I'm a 60% developer / 40% small team lead. Do it all remotely with trips to California every two months or so. Plenty of positions are available for remote workers. From what I've seen, it's not the employers, but rather the employees. For some reason, the convenience and distractions of cities are lifestyle requirements, not employment requirements. Which is fine, but I take issue with the widespread delusion that lifestyle expenses are not a choice, especially for cognitive workers like developers, designers, etc.
    - g00gler 10y ago
      I guess that's true, I'm just a fancyite. Gotta have that sushi delivered to me, etc
    - stanmancan 10y ago
      Well, I live about a 45 minute drive from Vancouver BC. It's still part of the "Greater Vancouver" area, but it's not like we're living right downtown. The area I live is pretty much all residential. We're not exactly living a fast paced fancy high life. Yes, living here is a choice we make. I could move to the middle of nowhere , buy a house, and have lower expenses. Heck, I could move to a third world country and live like a king for a fraction of what I pay now. But I don't think that's really relevant. My wife and I's families are both close by, our 9 year old daughter has grown up here and has many friends. For a single individual, or a small family without many connections to where they live, it's easier to just up and move on. However, it isn't always as easy as it sounds.
      - tostitos1979 10y ago
        Curious what part of BC you are in? My wife and I had dreams to move to Vancouver one day but seems impossible given that we just had a baby, and housing prices. We looked at Surry but seems a bit gritty and at the border of affordability. We're sick of Toronto. The traffic, the cost of houses and the weather all suck (TO has fantastic ethnic diversity and all our family lives there). We have friends buying run-down semidetached houses for a million dollars in Toronto ... we're saying no to that.
        stanmancan 10y ago
        Real close to Surrey actually, a few blocks from the border. Anywhere in the Lower Mainland is a really beautiful place to live, and lots to do outdoors if you're into that. Surrey had a bad reputation but it's mostly deserved. As usual, the vast majority of people are totally normal citizens, but there's plenty of gang violence. Last I read there had been 36 gang shootings in 2016 alone (Here's a map: http://bc.ctvnews.ca/2016-surrey-shootings http://bc.ctvnews.ca/2016-surrey-shootings). It's not somewhere I would ever want to live personally, but I know many people who have spent their whole lives there without any incidence. If you're trying to escape expensive house prices though, you're looking in the wrong place. Housing prices have been on the rise for years now. I love the weather here, but you have to be prepared for lots of rain and grey winters. Traffic can be pretty terrible too depending on where you're going and when. Because of the geography of the area, there's lots of bridges that people like to get in accidents on during rush hour. If you can avoid having to cross a bridge in rush hour, or drive in the downtown core, you'll be fine. FWIW I grew up in Victoria, spent a year in TO, and have been in the lower mainland for the last 5 years and it's been my favourite place to live by far.
- rhino369 10y ago
  Sure they could reduce expenses by moving but they would also see a drop in income too. You can't compare a SF dollar with an Appleton Wi dollar. They aren't the same
jpetso 10y ago
It may be worth pointing out that as of right now, CAD $125K is only USD $96.5K, while USD $125K is CAD $162K. There are probably a number of other factors offsetting the exchange rate, but with a family income of >$150K in Canada you're at least pretty well off and in a high percentile, house or not.
pasquinelli 10y ago
i think it's pretty typical for people to appraise their own relative income level lower than it actually is.
- tostitos1979 10y ago
  Housing is a good equalizer. The average detached home in Toronto is 1.2 million dollars. The middle class should be able to afford a home, I think. Therefore, the parent is correct in his/her observation. The inflation numbers we have are grossly inaccurate. If we take the price of housing into account as we adjust incomes, the cut off for the middle class is probably 250-300K.
  - pasquinelli 10y ago
    i disagree that the middle class should be able to afford to buy a home, necessarily. that's completely dependent on the housing market in their area. is there a crisis of homeless middle class people? if not, then they aren't being priced out of a place to live, but out of owning a house. i've never considered the middle class as excluding renters.
    - tostitos1979 10y ago
      IMHO, we're in exceptional times. Taxes are generally based on income but property rents are a function of property prices. I've had a bunch of Uber drivers claim they are struggling to make ends meet in the Bay area - yet they have houses worth over a million bucks. Income-wise, these people are blue-color workers but have insane assets simply because they were in the right place at the right time (good for them!). Meanwhile, I know physicians moving out of places like the Bay and NYC because they cannot afford the rent. Things are messed up and no one at the helm seems to care.

Agreed. We live in Canada. Our household income for a family of 3 is just over $125K and I certainly don't feel like we're "upper class". We can't even afford to buy a house where we live.

vox_mollis 10y ago

I live in a town in the US where the median household income is roughly $36k and the median household size is 3.9. Most adults own their home here. I know most HN people tend to see urban/suburban areas as the only habitable zones, but come on - you are definitely living high on the hog, it's just hard to see because you choose a location and lifestyle with very high expenses.

g00gler 10y ago
That's true, but what do you do for a living? I think it'd be significantly harder to find a job as a developer in the middle of nowhere, it's even hard to find an interesting job in the suburbs IME.
- vox_mollis 10y ago
  I'm a 60% developer / 40% small team lead. Do it all remotely with trips to California every two months or so. Plenty of positions are available for remote workers. From what I've seen, it's not the employers, but rather the employees. For some reason, the convenience and distractions of cities are lifestyle requirements, not employment requirements. Which is fine, but I take issue with the widespread delusion that lifestyle expenses are not a choice, especially for cognitive workers like developers, designers, etc.
  - g00gler 10y ago
    I guess that's true, I'm just a fancyite. Gotta have that sushi delivered to me, etc
  - stanmancan 10y ago
    Well, I live about a 45 minute drive from Vancouver BC. It's still part of the "Greater Vancouver" area, but it's not like we're living right downtown. The area I live is pretty much all residential. We're not exactly living a fast paced fancy high life. Yes, living here is a choice we make. I could move to the middle of nowhere , buy a house, and have lower expenses. Heck, I could move to a third world country and live like a king for a fraction of what I pay now. But I don't think that's really relevant. My wife and I's families are both close by, our 9 year old daughter has grown up here and has many friends. For a single individual, or a small family without many connections to where they live, it's easier to just up and move on. However, it isn't always as easy as it sounds.
    - tostitos1979 10y ago
      Curious what part of BC you are in? My wife and I had dreams to move to Vancouver one day but seems impossible given that we just had a baby, and housing prices. We looked at Surry but seems a bit gritty and at the border of affordability. We're sick of Toronto. The traffic, the cost of houses and the weather all suck (TO has fantastic ethnic diversity and all our family lives there). We have friends buying run-down semidetached houses for a million dollars in Toronto ... we're saying no to that.
      - stanmancan 10y ago
        Real close to Surrey actually, a few blocks from the border. Anywhere in the Lower Mainland is a really beautiful place to live, and lots to do outdoors if you're into that. Surrey had a bad reputation but it's mostly deserved. As usual, the vast majority of people are totally normal citizens, but there's plenty of gang violence. Last I read there had been 36 gang shootings in 2016 alone (Here's a map: http://bc.ctvnews.ca/2016-surrey-shootings http://bc.ctvnews.ca/2016-surrey-shootings). It's not somewhere I would ever want to live personally, but I know many people who have spent their whole lives there without any incidence. If you're trying to escape expensive house prices though, you're looking in the wrong place. Housing prices have been on the rise for years now. I love the weather here, but you have to be prepared for lots of rain and grey winters. Traffic can be pretty terrible too depending on where you're going and when. Because of the geography of the area, there's lots of bridges that people like to get in accidents on during rush hour. If you can avoid having to cross a bridge in rush hour, or drive in the downtown core, you'll be fine. FWIW I grew up in Victoria, spent a year in TO, and have been in the lower mainland for the last 5 years and it's been my favourite place to live by far.
rhino369 10y ago
Sure they could reduce expenses by moving but they would also see a drop in income too. You can't compare a SF dollar with an Appleton Wi dollar. They aren't the same

jpetso 10y ago

It may be worth pointing out that as of right now, CAD $125K is only USD $96.5K, while USD $125K is CAD $162K. There are probably a number of other factors offsetting the exchange rate, but with a family income of >$150K in Canada you're at least pretty well off and in a high percentile, house or not.

pasquinelli 10y ago

i think it's pretty typical for people to appraise their own relative income level lower than it actually is.

tostitos1979 10y ago
Housing is a good equalizer. The average detached home in Toronto is 1.2 million dollars. The middle class should be able to afford a home, I think. Therefore, the parent is correct in his/her observation. The inflation numbers we have are grossly inaccurate. If we take the price of housing into account as we adjust incomes, the cut off for the middle class is probably 250-300K.
- pasquinelli 10y ago
  i disagree that the middle class should be able to afford to buy a home, necessarily. that's completely dependent on the housing market in their area. is there a crisis of homeless middle class people? if not, then they aren't being priced out of a place to live, but out of owning a house. i've never considered the middle class as excluding renters.
  - tostitos1979 10y ago
    IMHO, we're in exceptional times. Taxes are generally based on income but property rents are a function of property prices. I've had a bunch of Uber drivers claim they are struggling to make ends meet in the Bay area - yet they have houses worth over a million bucks. Income-wise, these people are blue-color workers but have insane assets simply because they were in the right place at the right time (good for them!). Meanwhile, I know physicians moving out of places like the Bay and NYC because they cannot afford the rent. Things are messed up and no one at the helm seems to care.