8 ms·

Uber's reason to block tipping? Racism

38 points by steven 10y ago

smt88 10y ago
Interesting look at lots of research on tipping: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-n... (You will agree that tipping is racist by the time you finish listening.)
samstave 10y ago
I have often just tipped my drivers cash.
- umanwizard 10y ago
  Why? Do you often tip other random working-class people when it's not expected, like cashiers in grocery stores?
  - Alupis 10y ago
    > Why? Do you often tip other random working-class people when it's not expected, like cashiers in grocery stores? Generally you tip when someone provides you with a service, and especially when they've gone above and beyond the base "experience". A cashier isn't really providing a service... they're collecting money for the store. Baggers, however, provide a service, especially if they walk the bags to your car. Servers in restaurants provide a service, as they are in charge of your dining experience. Handymen that fix things in your house provide a service, etc. In theory, you tip because you got an excellent experience. The chance of a good tip is, in theory, what motivates service providers to go above and beyond the bare minimum. If it's a repeated service (like you dine at your favorite restaurant often), and the service provider knows you tip well for good experiences, it provides a good incentive to keep providing excellent experiences.
    - Vraxx 10y ago
      What about the novel idea of incentivizing the restaurant to provide excellent experiences through charging a fair market rate for a reliably excellent experience? You can show your support for this restaurant by being a repeat customer because you think the value proposition that they provide is one that meets your standards.
      - Alupis 10y ago
        This idea has some merit. However, it's not the restaurant that's providing the experience, it's whoever your particular server happens to be. By paying a "fair" wage to the server, you do remove some problems, but you may introduce others. When I was younger and worked as a server, it was commonplace for fellow servers to end the night with $150-$200 in tips (in addition to minimum wage, as this was California), which is decidedly above a "fair" wage for maybe 4-5 hours of work. It was a bad night if you didn't break $100 in tips. Changing to a salary system, for some, would mean a net pay decrease (or far more expensive food, which may decrease patronage). In addition, many feel a salary system would remove any incentive to deliver excellent experiences above the bare minimum. If you're a server, and you know no matter what happens on the floor tonight, you get paid exactly the same... perhaps you don't refill drinks quite as often... or you don't put on your best friendly face when taking orders... because it doesn't matter (think of your Fast Food experiences, where employees don't really care about quality in any regard, food, service, cleanliness, etc). We worked hard for those tips, because it produced immediate, tangible results. I know this is partly anecdotal, but for me back then as a server, I prefer tips over salary.
        Vraxx 10y ago
        If you increased the price of the food to include the average tip and distributed that increased price among your workers you've just provided that same incentive (a wage decidedly above "fair") to your servers and the experience remains constant for your customers. Now if the servers decide that means they can slack because the "tips" are guaranteed, they can find another place to work for those kinds of wages. Especially with feedback systems being easier to implement through recent mobile technology, the problems are not intractable.
  - samstave 10y ago
    When Uber first started, in your account settings you could set a tip amount. They took that away at some point. Sometimes I change my mind about where I'm going and take a totally different trip than planned - and when I like the driver or make them go out of their way, like say "I'm going to make several stops" and they aren't expecting that, then I sometimes tip them. However, when they fuck up my route, like for example me telling a driver I was going to alameda and he gets off the freeway in San Francisco instead of going across the bridge as to be expected and wastes my time, I complain to support@uber and request a refund. Uber support has actually been quite good for me. I recently was mistakenly charged three times for one ride, and they fixed it very quickly. AirBNB on the other hand has horrid support from my experience.
    - timcederman 10y ago
      Are you sure? I've been using Uber since April 2011, and they launched in July 2010, and I remember when I signed up having heard about how you don't have to tip. There certainly wasn't that option when I joined.
      - samstave 10y ago
        I'm positive, though it seems this setting may have been removed far longer ago than I thought
    - gergles 10y ago
      You can't be positive. Uber has literally never supported tipping. You might be thinking of Lyft or Sidecar or some other competitor.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    Tipping a driver is not expected, now?
    - umanwizard 10y ago
      Not tipping an uber driver. Nobody I know tips uber drivers.
- envy2 10y ago
  I can't remember the last time I carried cash. If it can't be paid for by credit card, I'm not buying it.
  - swalsh 10y ago
    Last winter I even paid the neighbor kid to shovel my sidewalk with a card. I have no idea how a 13 year got a square account, but.... it's a thing.
- minimaxir 10y ago
  In theory, drivers should refuse.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    Why?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- dpeck 10y ago
  stop doing that, one of the main draws of Uber is not having to deal with the ridiculous tipping system with cabs, once you introduce tipping there are incentives for the drivers to get paid less and a whole host of negatives are added and we're just back to a less regulated taxi company.
  - samstave 10y ago
    I don't agree. As I said above, if I am happy with a service I get I will tip. If I am unhappy I contact support and demand a refund - it has worked well for me and I have been using uber since pretty much day one.
- up817218we 10y ago
  The hoi polloi has voted: Sam in fact has never carried cash or tipped any drivers!
ekun 10y ago
The king of algorithms?
SolaceQuantum 10y ago
While yes, the issue with disparate tipping dependent on race is probably an issue, I'm pretty sure Uber is just using it as a cop out here.
- zardo 10y ago
  I don't think so. If Uber allows tips through the app they collect data on their drivers suffering pay discrimination. Eventually it will wind up in court and jury will side with the drivers forcing Uber to pay the difference.
  - Alupis 10y ago
    Lyft allows for tipping via the App. I do it often, when a driver goes above the bare minimum of Point A -> Point B. Having water bottles available in the car, good music or ability to put something of my choosing on, a good conversation, friendly driver, driver who looks for short cuts to cut down on the fare, etc. Some drivers act like you're not even there, or don't have good "people skills", and it can sometimes make for an uncomfortable experience. Supporting those drivers that go above and beyond the minimum is something that encourages a better experience for me.
    - zardo 10y ago
      Lyft will eventually have to speak to the reality that how much money you make per ride as a Lyft driver can be predicted by skin tone and sex.
      - Alupis 10y ago
        > Lyft will eventually have to speak to the reality that how much money you make per ride as a Lyft driver can be predicted by skin tone and sex. Do we actually have data on this, or is this some sort of assumption? Uber is using this as an excuse to not even try a tipping system, but without data, it's just a hollow excuse. I tip based on experience. I'm sure most of us do... not based on what color your skin is or your sex.
dimino 10y ago
Tipping is some of the worst form of payment in existence. It's completely unregulated from a consumer standpoint, and is therefore subject to every single bias one can think of - sexism, racism, "attractivism"? Literally every single little thing that people use to incorrectly assess another person's performance or behavior will be calculated into a tip. Don't like a person's nose ring? Lower tip. Don't like a person's haircut? Lower tip. If a company were found out to be basing salaries on these things, they'd be sued so hard and so fast, their HR department would catch fire from the friction. We laud restaurants when they do away with tipping [0], what's up with the two-faced response to Uber and their tipping stance? Tipping sucks. Tipping absolutely sucks. I'm begging you nice people to not push Uber into a tipping model just because you hate Uber. Tipping is the much worse evil here. [0] - https://goo.gl/0oFRei
- umanwizard 10y ago
  Is there a two-faced stance? I haven't seen it. Everyone in this thread, as well as everyone I've talked to personally, loves Uber because you can't tip. It's literally the only reason why I personally never take Lyft, despite it being cheaper.
  - dimino 10y ago
    This article seems to give way more credence to the option of being able to tip Uber drivers than I think is warranted. Just to add on for folks in other parts of the world, in the US, if you work a job that gets tipped, you usually can legally be paid way less as a base wage. > The American federal government requires a wage of at least $2.13 per hour be paid to employees that receive at least $30 per month in tips. If wages and tips do not equal the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour during any pay period, the employer is required to increase cash wages to compensate. [0] Uber will take advantage of this, if they can. Tipping is a trap! [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States
    - gergles 10y ago
      Uber drivers aren't employees so don't get paid minimum wage (or anything, really) by Uber in the first place. They get paid their fares minus Uber's vig.
tehwebguy 10y ago
No tipping is one of my favorite features of Uber.
- hesdeadjim 10y ago
  Agreed, and at least with the black car service it makes the experience feel much more professional.
andrewvc 10y ago
Well, here's my proposal then. Give uber users a 'living wage' option. Where when you use the app you pay at least 1.5x pricing as a floor. The prices for uber around here can't be livable, and no one pays cash.
- cbhl 10y ago
  Why not just always pick UberSelect or UberBlack instead of UberX?
- pfarnsworth 10y ago
  I don't know where you live, but almost every single Uber driver I've talked to say they make more money than the job they had previously with far more flexibility, so they're pretty happy. One Uber driver said he made over $80k last year and he loved it.
- TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
  You seem to be missing the point. Also they seem to be paid reasonably. It sounds like you just want more regulation.
nomercy400 10y ago
Why do you need tipping in an app, going through the official channels? The driver is paid to bring the customer from point A to B, the customer pays. Why is there a need to pay again/more?
- Too 10y ago
  Isn't one of the reasons for the crazy tipping culture to avoid tax since it's in cash and not declared as income? How would that work if it's done through a controlled system like uber.
smokey_the_bear 10y ago
I hate tipping. It makes me uncomfortable, so I always tip really well, and I feel like I'm paying a niceness tax when I do it. I will probably consider uber less of an option for short trips around town if tipping is baked in as an optional part of it. The negative feeling at the end of the ride will negate some of the uber convenience, and I'll walk or ride the bus. That said, I already tipped uber drivers in cash if I was installing a car seat in their car and they were polite about it.
- enjo 10y ago
  You can argue that Lyft, with it's tipping function, is the better option. I almost never leave a tip on Lyft, but my driver has no idea if I did or not so my rating isn't affected. When tipping happens well after the trip is over, both sides are sort of happy. The pressure to tip is lessened since you're not interacting with that driver after the tipping decision is made. Drivers are apparently happy with the arrangement as well.
- camikazeg 10y ago
  I agree that it is a niceness tax, and would go further and say that tipping has come to mean more about the person tipping, and less about the service you receive. When a waiter (or Lyft driver) gets a poor tip, or no tip do they think, "I really should have provided better service to that customer", or do they think, "that guy is cheap."
  - CaptSpify 10y ago
    And, to be fair, most of the time it is "that guy is cheap". Anyone that's had a job dealing with the general public knows how fast you get jaded. Waiting is a tough job, and usually the waiters get the short end of the stick
nilkn 10y ago
The lack of tips is definitely one of the better aspects of the Uber experience. Tips are awkward and complicate things. I'd much prefer for the base rates to just go up. I don't want to have to think about tipping.
6stringmerc 10y ago
Tipping is a crummy form of compensation at the root, in my belief. I don't mind playing guitar on a corner for tips, sure. But it's a hard way to make money sometimes, as I learned first-hand. After reading the article, I was wondering which direction the "racism" label might be pointed. Apparently it's being directed toward the drivers, and using waiters and waitresses as an example. I've worked as a waiter on several occasions, and the article mentioning that women fare worse than men (according to a study) does not ring true in my experience. Men make more in tips than women? Really? Uhhhh... I'm going to be careful in how I phrase it, because it might not be universal: In my experience, most of the racial overtones in regards to tipping were mostly directed at the customers, not at the waitstaff themselves. As in, the race or gender of the waiter/waitress was less thought of as the race or gender of the customer, or their nationality, considering some Europeans may be familiar with the custom of tipping but decide not to do it anyway as they drown their fries in Mayo.
Someone1234 10y ago
I'd prefer to pay a higher price than tip. When I book a service I want the transaction to be as straightforward as possible. I want to know the price at the time of booking, and I want that to be the price I pay. The problem with tipping is that people take it extremely personally, they also try to encourage tipping through awkward conversation. I don't want to have to deal with that. Plus these kinds of apps/services allow me to review the experience directly. I don't have to use money as a way to review the quality. If they absolutely insist on tipping, it should all be in the app, with pre-set amounts that I can just mash without too much thought, and that I can calculate into the cost before the car even picks me up. I really really hate American tipping culture. Even after living here a while it just seems so pointless, is completely arbitrary, and makes simple transactions more complicated.
- dboreham 10y ago
  Agree, as someone who grew up in a non-tipping country then became American later in life. I really like visiting countries where tipping is not only not done but actually "considered rude in their culture". Going to Japan in a few weeks... Within the US I've made my peace with the tipping thing by simply always over-tipping (not excessively, but always 20%+ on meals and bar tab, for example). Although this costs me more money, I prefer to avoid the anxiety over whether the tip is sufficient, appropriate etc. I get to devote my brain-time to other things. I do follow the custom that business owners are not to be tipped. fwiw when you say that tipping is pointless -- it is not because it serves the purpose of business owners to underpay their workers.
  - dboreham 10y ago
    Spent a couple of days in Seattle since I wrote this and was surprised to find that several of the restaurants in which I dined have banned tipping, instead adding a 20% service charge (that they state goes to pay the service staff). Progress.
- FussyZeus 10y ago
  As an American I agree completely. I know tipping fine for things like eating at restaurants, but there are tons of services I buy where I have literally no idea what constitutes a fair tip, and constantly wonder if I'm shortchanging people or overtipping. And of course you can't just ask the person because they feel weird about it, and you feel weird asking, and the whole thing is just annoying. I get that it's a decent motivator to encourage good service, but I think in my entire 10 year consumer history I've left maybe 2 intentionally bad tips for poor service out of hundreds if not thousands of interactions. It can't be that big of a deal.
caractacus 10y ago
Uber's stated reason to block tipping. But really, it means passengers don't need to care about working out the tip, feeling bad if they don't leave one or don't leave enough, don't need to carry cash, etc etc. It lowers the friction of taking an uber and means more business.
known 10y ago
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo...
corobo 10y ago
> passengers will now feel a “Tony Soprano-like veiled threat” from drivers: “Pay up or I’ll give you a poor rating.” Is that really a problem? I honestly didn't even know Uber drivers rated the passengers! I would imagine a driver getting a bad rating for being forceful about a tip would be much worse for them than a passenger bad rating would be for me. I can take a Lyft, bus, tube, etc if I can't get served with Uber. Heck, in a lot of cases I can just walk. A driver can only drive for so many companies before they're churned out of the business I really doubt that is, or would become, a thing.
- JoshTriplett 10y ago
  The last Uber ride I had, when traveling, I got a ten-minute diatribe on how terrible Uber was, how much better Lyft was, and how passengers could tip in cash, hint hint. Not enjoyable at all.
  - corobo 10y ago
    Wow. Every time I've used Uber the driver has been quiet outside of friendliness and greetings until I engaged them in conversation (London, so maybe not as fussed about tips/pay?) I think I'd have to tweak my 5-star-unless-we-crash rating system if I had someone ranting against the company they're driving for
massysett 10y ago
If Uber is not going to allow tips, but drivers are going to pressure for cash tips, I might as well take a regular cab. At least in a regular cab, tipping is expected AND I can add the tip in on my credit card. So with Uber, now my choices are either to tip make sure that I am carrying small bills so that I can do so, or not tip and risk getting a "low rating" (whether I should care about that is another question.) No thanks. Uber should either crack down on tips, or just put them in the app. Of course, cracking down on tips would probably require that Uber actually allow drivers to make decent money, which they are not interested in.
rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
Generally I think it's a bad idea to mix tipping and customer ratings. If you buy a $4.50 coffee with a $5 bill and don't put the fifty cents in the tip jar, the worst that happens is that the barista looks at you uncomfortably for a second or two. Then you get on with your day. If they rate you along with other baristas (or coffee shops) you'll have a reputation before you set foot through the door. Growing up in America, I didn't understand how absurd our tipping culture is until I visited Europe. There, wait staff don't bother you every five minutes to "ask how you're doing," you call them over when you need them, and if at the end of the meal you enjoyed your service, you can leave a few euros as an extra, not a semblance of a living wage because the employer refuses to pay it. Still, if it's really that important to you to tip your Uber driver, use cash.
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  My experience in Europe (edit: Spain and France in particular, England to a lesser extent) was that customer service was not very good. There was a general bad attitude toward customers, treating them more like a nuisance than the lifeblood of the business. It really made me appreciate the way we do things on this side of the pond.
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
    Could you extrapolate on your experiences? From what I saw (in Germany, Poland, and Italy), it is that people aren't paid to give a shit about the customer outside of the context of their service. No "how is everybody doing today?" No "have a nice day." You are there to be served and that's it. Then again, these kinds of attitudes can change dramatically across national boundaries; the perspective I have often heard about France is that "the customer is always wrong."
    - elcapitan 10y ago
      Europe is very regional in many things, this is one of them. Southern Germany would be a very different (more friendly) experience than Northern Germany (in particular Berlin). [Waiting for fellow Germans to kick my butt for that ^^] I've had similarly very nice experiences in France at the German border (south west that is).
pfarnsworth 10y ago
I will never, ever tip my Uber driver. It's one of the banes of Western living and I'm so happy that Uber doesn't include tipping in the app, if they did it would make it far less valuable to me. Feel free to not drop prices so aggressively, but please do not add tipping.
homulilly 10y ago
Tipping is a barbaric practice. If drivers aren't making enough they should be advocating for higher wages instead of complaining that Uber doesn't make it easy enough for them to take bribes.
JoshTriplett 10y ago
This title seems editorialized: the title here on HN is ambiguous about whether the "reason" is "because of" or "to prevent", while the title of the actual article makes that clearer. If drivers aren't getting paid enough to want to drive for a particular company, they should build the "tip" into the price, to make sure everyone gets paid enough. But the right response to good/bad service is a rating, not a tip. A field for a tip implies that the "real" price is higher than advertised, because only a monster wouldn't tip, and that bad service just means a lower tip. A rating system makes sure that all drivers must provide good service, and the company should be making sure they get paid accordingly. Transportation isn't a service where it's acceptable to have good drivers who get paid more and bad drivers who get paid less, no matter what mechanism implements that pay differential. There should only be "good" drivers.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  There are good reasons to tip a good driver beyond the stated cost of the service. Maybe they know the area well enough to get you through during rush hour. If you have a car seat you need to install and they can help quickly (as well as drive smoothly to keep the child from acting up) that is also a boon. If any service is exceptional, I am always happy to tip, even if I am already paying the full price (and living wage).
- jasode 10y ago
  >Transportation isn't a service where it's acceptable to have good drivers who get paid more and bad drivers who get paid less, no matter what mechanism implements that pay differential. There should only be "good" drivers. Of course, there's no universal authority on what "tipping" actually means but I think many people (both the riders & drivers) understand that tipping is for the "service" portion that's not related to the driving. E.g. carrying the suitcases, pointing out the landmarks like a tourist guide, etc. The "driving" component of getting from point A to point B in a safe manner, without making incompetent U-turns, etc is the baseline. The tipping isn't for that. E.g. I usually don't tip the Hertz/Avis car rental bus driver but if I'm trying to carry 3 bags and he helps me with them, I will tip him. All that said, it's possible that some Uber drivers want extra tip money just for the sake of extra money. Like others, I also prefer transactions where there is no tipping expected. It would be annoying to scramble for some loose dollar bills to tip the flight attendants as I try to rush off the airplane to make a connection.
deleted 10y ago
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Kiro 10y ago
I live in a country where tipping basically doesn't exist. It's such a foreign concept to me that I'm afraid of going to the states. It's almost like removing all price tags and having to guess what things cost, with repercussion if you pay too little.
kylecordes 10y ago
I'm not much of an Uber customer. Maybe five trips a year when I am in the city where Uber is big. So maybe people like me don't matter. But: Tipping would make the whole thing much worse. I would be much happier if they would raise their rates systemwide by whatever percentage is warranted, and pay appropriately. If I wanted a bad experience, I would take a taxi. If they go this route, among other things they are opening the door to be Ubered by the next Uber.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  They're not going to raise rates, and they're not going to raise what they pay drivers.
apeace 10y ago
When I use Uber, I frequently ask the drivers how often they get tips. They tell me that about one third of the time, the rider gives them some cash. (This is anecdotal of course, but I've asked roughly 30 drivers. Some drivers say they never get tips). FWIW, I have found that Uber drivers are frequently eager to talk about their experience with Uber and their opinions. I've heard a wide range of feedback from "Uber is evil but I need this job" to "Uber changed my life". But all drivers seem to agree tipping should be built in.
sangd 10y ago
I admitted that tipping gives a good incentive to the person providing the service as I myself felt before. But I dislike tipping as I see people react differently whether you tip or not and the amount you tip. It was quite hard for me to really know what percentage to tip the person happy and to continue a good service. How do you gauge the quality of the service to tip 15-25% or even higher? That's just playing with our emotion.
mc32 10y ago
I don't like the practice of tipping. I want the total price baked in. So, I agree on the no tipping policy but painting tipping as racist because people may tip along racial and gender lines is ridiculous. That's the same as saying when people date and marry they are expressions of racism because people typically intermarry. So it dilutes the whole meaning of racism and reduces it to a politically weak tool.
nickfrostatx 10y ago
The article admits that information from eight drives is "a hopelessly anecdotal number"... then goes on for several paragraphs to imply that these eight drivers are evidence to systematically disprove Uber's claims about racism and sexism. Completely bogus.
roflchoppa 10y ago
I remember when i was working at a fruit stand company, they said we could not be tipped... However that did not stop this guy from New York from tipping me, i recall he said, "For the service you provided i could not asked for anything else, where I'm from if you get good service you tip" I find it funny because it's directly against that whole "racism bit"
gmarx 10y ago
"...Yet the fact that she had just sued her former venture capital firm for discrimination tends to prove Pao is all-in on this egalitarian thing." Is that sarcasm?
neves 10y ago
Tipping would mess Uber's reviews. The drivers would give a good review just for who gave a big tip.
nickpsecurity 10y ago
I'm for eliminating tipping in favor of just paying the people as part of the service. That said, there's one angle these kind of articles never mention: the oft-repeated claim that black people don't tip as often, which would hurt drivers too. Almost every waiter or waitress I know down here says this. A good chunk are black men or women. Rather than never tip, they say they're less likely to tip and often for less money. The exceptions (and job security) keep them delivering good service where they can. They just don't expect anything to come out of it. Strange that I never see that angle on public sites covering discrimination but hear it from black waiters all the time. I'd like to see a survey of various areas with careful questions on the subject to see how true it is, in what areas, and what combinations of race/gender for both waiter and table. Also, if it's more or less likely with groups vs single seats. Anyone know a study or hear similar things from your waiters locally? Or is it better in your area?
ianstormtaylor 10y ago
I liked seeing that the author clearly pointed out that the data they collected was not anywhere near statistically significant... > Eight drivers sent me a report covering all their rides during a week in April, a hopelessly anecdotal number, but enough to learn more than [Lyft] will release. But then a few paragraphs later... > These results don’t look great for Uber’s hypothetical claims: the one female in the lineup made the best tips. And the black driver, so disfavored in all the academic studies, emerged a bit below average. No, no, no! A "lineup" of 8 people carries no weight at all against Uber's claims. It's frustrating to see articles being shared that have blatantly wrong conclusion-drawing practices like this.
aeorgnoieang 10y ago
Something related, tho not something I've previously heard or read about, is whether Uber is rationally deciding that its current 'low' prices/fares are optimal, from the perspective of maximizing profits. In a lot of comments on this thread people claim to prefer to pay a higher price than tip. If driver's are upset at poor pay, I'd expect Uber to care – all else being equal. And if Uber could increase its profits by raising prices, I'd expect it do so. I wouldn't expect all price increases to fully benefit drivers alone. So, given that Uber seems to be applying significant pressure to keep prices and fares low, why are they doing so if not to maximize their long-term profits?
- aaroninsf 10y ago
  As a customer accustomed to being catered to by Uber, you might indeed expect Uber to care. In actuality both Uber and Lyft have been _relentlessly_ driving employee wages ("contractor rates") down to the lowest possible sustainable level. That's their business model of course: colonize a regulated industry and make hay as long as possible using technology to dodge established regulation while externalizing as many costs as possible. Works out great! Except for the employees. My mother drove until last week for both Uber and Lyft in the Bay Area. Over the last 18-20 months her take home earnings were reduced to about _one third_ what they were when she began. So she gave it up. Personally I cannot _wait_ for regulation to catch up with these companies. Of course, they might completely eliminate their driver base via self-driving fleet vehicles before it does... ...though I suspect their business model if they're still around at that point (or that of whoever 'disrupts' them) will be leasing self-driving cars from private individuals. Why maintain a fleet when it's clear asking subcontractors to do so for you is so profitable?
Overtonwindow 10y ago
Tipping is too personal and needs to go in general. I think tipping does lead to classism, racism, and an overall awkward experience. Going to other countries where tipping is not expected is really refreshing. I vote to pay more than to be put into a tipping situation.

38 points by steven 10y ago

smt88 10y ago

Interesting look at lots of research on tipping: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-n... (You will agree that tipping is racist by the time you finish listening.)

samstave 10y ago

I have often just tipped my drivers cash.

umanwizard 10y ago
Why? Do you often tip other random working-class people when it's not expected, like cashiers in grocery stores?
- Alupis 10y ago
  > Why? Do you often tip other random working-class people when it's not expected, like cashiers in grocery stores? Generally you tip when someone provides you with a service, and especially when they've gone above and beyond the base "experience". A cashier isn't really providing a service... they're collecting money for the store. Baggers, however, provide a service, especially if they walk the bags to your car. Servers in restaurants provide a service, as they are in charge of your dining experience. Handymen that fix things in your house provide a service, etc. In theory, you tip because you got an excellent experience. The chance of a good tip is, in theory, what motivates service providers to go above and beyond the bare minimum. If it's a repeated service (like you dine at your favorite restaurant often), and the service provider knows you tip well for good experiences, it provides a good incentive to keep providing excellent experiences.
  - Vraxx 10y ago
    What about the novel idea of incentivizing the restaurant to provide excellent experiences through charging a fair market rate for a reliably excellent experience? You can show your support for this restaurant by being a repeat customer because you think the value proposition that they provide is one that meets your standards.
    - Alupis 10y ago
      This idea has some merit. However, it's not the restaurant that's providing the experience, it's whoever your particular server happens to be. By paying a "fair" wage to the server, you do remove some problems, but you may introduce others. When I was younger and worked as a server, it was commonplace for fellow servers to end the night with $150-$200 in tips (in addition to minimum wage, as this was California), which is decidedly above a "fair" wage for maybe 4-5 hours of work. It was a bad night if you didn't break $100 in tips. Changing to a salary system, for some, would mean a net pay decrease (or far more expensive food, which may decrease patronage). In addition, many feel a salary system would remove any incentive to deliver excellent experiences above the bare minimum. If you're a server, and you know no matter what happens on the floor tonight, you get paid exactly the same... perhaps you don't refill drinks quite as often... or you don't put on your best friendly face when taking orders... because it doesn't matter (think of your Fast Food experiences, where employees don't really care about quality in any regard, food, service, cleanliness, etc). We worked hard for those tips, because it produced immediate, tangible results. I know this is partly anecdotal, but for me back then as a server, I prefer tips over salary.
      - Vraxx 10y ago
        If you increased the price of the food to include the average tip and distributed that increased price among your workers you've just provided that same incentive (a wage decidedly above "fair") to your servers and the experience remains constant for your customers. Now if the servers decide that means they can slack because the "tips" are guaranteed, they can find another place to work for those kinds of wages. Especially with feedback systems being easier to implement through recent mobile technology, the problems are not intractable.
- samstave 10y ago
  When Uber first started, in your account settings you could set a tip amount. They took that away at some point. Sometimes I change my mind about where I'm going and take a totally different trip than planned - and when I like the driver or make them go out of their way, like say "I'm going to make several stops" and they aren't expecting that, then I sometimes tip them. However, when they fuck up my route, like for example me telling a driver I was going to alameda and he gets off the freeway in San Francisco instead of going across the bridge as to be expected and wastes my time, I complain to support@uber and request a refund. Uber support has actually been quite good for me. I recently was mistakenly charged three times for one ride, and they fixed it very quickly. AirBNB on the other hand has horrid support from my experience.
  - timcederman 10y ago
    Are you sure? I've been using Uber since April 2011, and they launched in July 2010, and I remember when I signed up having heard about how you don't have to tip. There certainly wasn't that option when I joined.
    - samstave 10y ago
      I'm positive, though it seems this setting may have been removed far longer ago than I thought
  - gergles 10y ago
    You can't be positive. Uber has literally never supported tipping. You might be thinking of Lyft or Sidecar or some other competitor.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Tipping a driver is not expected, now?
  - umanwizard 10y ago
    Not tipping an uber driver. Nobody I know tips uber drivers.
envy2 10y ago
I can't remember the last time I carried cash. If it can't be paid for by credit card, I'm not buying it.
- swalsh 10y ago
  Last winter I even paid the neighbor kid to shovel my sidewalk with a card. I have no idea how a 13 year got a square account, but.... it's a thing.
minimaxir 10y ago
In theory, drivers should refuse.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Why?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
dpeck 10y ago
stop doing that, one of the main draws of Uber is not having to deal with the ridiculous tipping system with cabs, once you introduce tipping there are incentives for the drivers to get paid less and a whole host of negatives are added and we're just back to a less regulated taxi company.
- samstave 10y ago
  I don't agree. As I said above, if I am happy with a service I get I will tip. If I am unhappy I contact support and demand a refund - it has worked well for me and I have been using uber since pretty much day one.
up817218we 10y ago
The hoi polloi has voted: Sam in fact has never carried cash or tipped any drivers!

ekun 10y ago

The king of algorithms?

SolaceQuantum 10y ago

While yes, the issue with disparate tipping dependent on race is probably an issue, I'm pretty sure Uber is just using it as a cop out here.

zardo 10y ago
I don't think so. If Uber allows tips through the app they collect data on their drivers suffering pay discrimination. Eventually it will wind up in court and jury will side with the drivers forcing Uber to pay the difference.
- Alupis 10y ago
  Lyft allows for tipping via the App. I do it often, when a driver goes above the bare minimum of Point A -> Point B. Having water bottles available in the car, good music or ability to put something of my choosing on, a good conversation, friendly driver, driver who looks for short cuts to cut down on the fare, etc. Some drivers act like you're not even there, or don't have good "people skills", and it can sometimes make for an uncomfortable experience. Supporting those drivers that go above and beyond the minimum is something that encourages a better experience for me.
  - zardo 10y ago
    Lyft will eventually have to speak to the reality that how much money you make per ride as a Lyft driver can be predicted by skin tone and sex.
    - Alupis 10y ago
      > Lyft will eventually have to speak to the reality that how much money you make per ride as a Lyft driver can be predicted by skin tone and sex. Do we actually have data on this, or is this some sort of assumption? Uber is using this as an excuse to not even try a tipping system, but without data, it's just a hollow excuse. I tip based on experience. I'm sure most of us do... not based on what color your skin is or your sex.

dimino 10y ago

Tipping is some of the worst form of payment in existence. It's completely unregulated from a consumer standpoint, and is therefore subject to every single bias one can think of - sexism, racism, "attractivism"? Literally every single little thing that people use to incorrectly assess another person's performance or behavior will be calculated into a tip. Don't like a person's nose ring? Lower tip. Don't like a person's haircut? Lower tip. If a company were found out to be basing salaries on these things, they'd be sued so hard and so fast, their HR department would catch fire from the friction. We laud restaurants when they do away with tipping [0], what's up with the two-faced response to Uber and their tipping stance? Tipping sucks. Tipping absolutely sucks. I'm begging you nice people to not push Uber into a tipping model just because you hate Uber. Tipping is the much worse evil here. [0] - https://goo.gl/0oFRei

umanwizard 10y ago
Is there a two-faced stance? I haven't seen it. Everyone in this thread, as well as everyone I've talked to personally, loves Uber because you can't tip. It's literally the only reason why I personally never take Lyft, despite it being cheaper.
- dimino 10y ago
  This article seems to give way more credence to the option of being able to tip Uber drivers than I think is warranted. Just to add on for folks in other parts of the world, in the US, if you work a job that gets tipped, you usually can legally be paid way less as a base wage. > The American federal government requires a wage of at least $2.13 per hour be paid to employees that receive at least $30 per month in tips. If wages and tips do not equal the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour during any pay period, the employer is required to increase cash wages to compensate. [0] Uber will take advantage of this, if they can. Tipping is a trap! [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States
  - gergles 10y ago
    Uber drivers aren't employees so don't get paid minimum wage (or anything, really) by Uber in the first place. They get paid their fares minus Uber's vig.

tehwebguy 10y ago

No tipping is one of my favorite features of Uber.

hesdeadjim 10y ago
Agreed, and at least with the black car service it makes the experience feel much more professional.

andrewvc 10y ago

Well, here's my proposal then. Give uber users a 'living wage' option. Where when you use the app you pay at least 1.5x pricing as a floor. The prices for uber around here can't be livable, and no one pays cash.

cbhl 10y ago
Why not just always pick UberSelect or UberBlack instead of UberX?
pfarnsworth 10y ago
I don't know where you live, but almost every single Uber driver I've talked to say they make more money than the job they had previously with far more flexibility, so they're pretty happy. One Uber driver said he made over $80k last year and he loved it.
TheOneTrueKyle 10y ago
You seem to be missing the point. Also they seem to be paid reasonably. It sounds like you just want more regulation.

nomercy400 10y ago

Why do you need tipping in an app, going through the official channels? The driver is paid to bring the customer from point A to B, the customer pays. Why is there a need to pay again/more?

Too 10y ago
Isn't one of the reasons for the crazy tipping culture to avoid tax since it's in cash and not declared as income? How would that work if it's done through a controlled system like uber.

smokey_the_bear 10y ago

I hate tipping. It makes me uncomfortable, so I always tip really well, and I feel like I'm paying a niceness tax when I do it. I will probably consider uber less of an option for short trips around town if tipping is baked in as an optional part of it. The negative feeling at the end of the ride will negate some of the uber convenience, and I'll walk or ride the bus. That said, I already tipped uber drivers in cash if I was installing a car seat in their car and they were polite about it.

enjo 10y ago
You can argue that Lyft, with it's tipping function, is the better option. I almost never leave a tip on Lyft, but my driver has no idea if I did or not so my rating isn't affected. When tipping happens well after the trip is over, both sides are sort of happy. The pressure to tip is lessened since you're not interacting with that driver after the tipping decision is made. Drivers are apparently happy with the arrangement as well.
camikazeg 10y ago
I agree that it is a niceness tax, and would go further and say that tipping has come to mean more about the person tipping, and less about the service you receive. When a waiter (or Lyft driver) gets a poor tip, or no tip do they think, "I really should have provided better service to that customer", or do they think, "that guy is cheap."
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  And, to be fair, most of the time it is "that guy is cheap". Anyone that's had a job dealing with the general public knows how fast you get jaded. Waiting is a tough job, and usually the waiters get the short end of the stick

nilkn 10y ago

The lack of tips is definitely one of the better aspects of the Uber experience. Tips are awkward and complicate things. I'd much prefer for the base rates to just go up. I don't want to have to think about tipping.

6stringmerc 10y ago

Tipping is a crummy form of compensation at the root, in my belief. I don't mind playing guitar on a corner for tips, sure. But it's a hard way to make money sometimes, as I learned first-hand. After reading the article, I was wondering which direction the "racism" label might be pointed. Apparently it's being directed toward the drivers, and using waiters and waitresses as an example. I've worked as a waiter on several occasions, and the article mentioning that women fare worse than men (according to a study) does not ring true in my experience. Men make more in tips than women? Really? Uhhhh... I'm going to be careful in how I phrase it, because it might not be universal: In my experience, most of the racial overtones in regards to tipping were mostly directed at the customers, not at the waitstaff themselves. As in, the race or gender of the waiter/waitress was less thought of as the race or gender of the customer, or their nationality, considering some Europeans may be familiar with the custom of tipping but decide not to do it anyway as they drown their fries in Mayo.

Someone1234 10y ago

I'd prefer to pay a higher price than tip. When I book a service I want the transaction to be as straightforward as possible. I want to know the price at the time of booking, and I want that to be the price I pay. The problem with tipping is that people take it extremely personally, they also try to encourage tipping through awkward conversation. I don't want to have to deal with that. Plus these kinds of apps/services allow me to review the experience directly. I don't have to use money as a way to review the quality. If they absolutely insist on tipping, it should all be in the app, with pre-set amounts that I can just mash without too much thought, and that I can calculate into the cost before the car even picks me up. I really really hate American tipping culture. Even after living here a while it just seems so pointless, is completely arbitrary, and makes simple transactions more complicated.

dboreham 10y ago
Agree, as someone who grew up in a non-tipping country then became American later in life. I really like visiting countries where tipping is not only not done but actually "considered rude in their culture". Going to Japan in a few weeks... Within the US I've made my peace with the tipping thing by simply always over-tipping (not excessively, but always 20%+ on meals and bar tab, for example). Although this costs me more money, I prefer to avoid the anxiety over whether the tip is sufficient, appropriate etc. I get to devote my brain-time to other things. I do follow the custom that business owners are not to be tipped. fwiw when you say that tipping is pointless -- it is not because it serves the purpose of business owners to underpay their workers.
- dboreham 10y ago
  Spent a couple of days in Seattle since I wrote this and was surprised to find that several of the restaurants in which I dined have banned tipping, instead adding a 20% service charge (that they state goes to pay the service staff). Progress.
FussyZeus 10y ago
As an American I agree completely. I know tipping fine for things like eating at restaurants, but there are tons of services I buy where I have literally no idea what constitutes a fair tip, and constantly wonder if I'm shortchanging people or overtipping. And of course you can't just ask the person because they feel weird about it, and you feel weird asking, and the whole thing is just annoying. I get that it's a decent motivator to encourage good service, but I think in my entire 10 year consumer history I've left maybe 2 intentionally bad tips for poor service out of hundreds if not thousands of interactions. It can't be that big of a deal.

caractacus 10y ago

Uber's stated reason to block tipping. But really, it means passengers don't need to care about working out the tip, feeling bad if they don't leave one or don't leave enough, don't need to carry cash, etc etc. It lowers the friction of taking an uber and means more business.

known 10y ago

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo...

corobo 10y ago

> passengers will now feel a “Tony Soprano-like veiled threat” from drivers: “Pay up or I’ll give you a poor rating.” Is that really a problem? I honestly didn't even know Uber drivers rated the passengers! I would imagine a driver getting a bad rating for being forceful about a tip would be much worse for them than a passenger bad rating would be for me. I can take a Lyft, bus, tube, etc if I can't get served with Uber. Heck, in a lot of cases I can just walk. A driver can only drive for so many companies before they're churned out of the business I really doubt that is, or would become, a thing.

JoshTriplett 10y ago
The last Uber ride I had, when traveling, I got a ten-minute diatribe on how terrible Uber was, how much better Lyft was, and how passengers could tip in cash, hint hint. Not enjoyable at all.
- corobo 10y ago
  Wow. Every time I've used Uber the driver has been quiet outside of friendliness and greetings until I engaged them in conversation (London, so maybe not as fussed about tips/pay?) I think I'd have to tweak my 5-star-unless-we-crash rating system if I had someone ranting against the company they're driving for

massysett 10y ago

If Uber is not going to allow tips, but drivers are going to pressure for cash tips, I might as well take a regular cab. At least in a regular cab, tipping is expected AND I can add the tip in on my credit card. So with Uber, now my choices are either to tip make sure that I am carrying small bills so that I can do so, or not tip and risk getting a "low rating" (whether I should care about that is another question.) No thanks. Uber should either crack down on tips, or just put them in the app. Of course, cracking down on tips would probably require that Uber actually allow drivers to make decent money, which they are not interested in.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago

Generally I think it's a bad idea to mix tipping and customer ratings. If you buy a $4.50 coffee with a $5 bill and don't put the fifty cents in the tip jar, the worst that happens is that the barista looks at you uncomfortably for a second or two. Then you get on with your day. If they rate you along with other baristas (or coffee shops) you'll have a reputation before you set foot through the door. Growing up in America, I didn't understand how absurd our tipping culture is until I visited Europe. There, wait staff don't bother you every five minutes to "ask how you're doing," you call them over when you need them, and if at the end of the meal you enjoyed your service, you can leave a few euros as an extra, not a semblance of a living wage because the employer refuses to pay it. Still, if it's really that important to you to tip your Uber driver, use cash.

marcoperaza 10y ago
My experience in Europe (edit: Spain and France in particular, England to a lesser extent) was that customer service was not very good. There was a general bad attitude toward customers, treating them more like a nuisance than the lifeblood of the business. It really made me appreciate the way we do things on this side of the pond.
- rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
  Could you extrapolate on your experiences? From what I saw (in Germany, Poland, and Italy), it is that people aren't paid to give a shit about the customer outside of the context of their service. No "how is everybody doing today?" No "have a nice day." You are there to be served and that's it. Then again, these kinds of attitudes can change dramatically across national boundaries; the perspective I have often heard about France is that "the customer is always wrong."
  - elcapitan 10y ago
    Europe is very regional in many things, this is one of them. Southern Germany would be a very different (more friendly) experience than Northern Germany (in particular Berlin). [Waiting for fellow Germans to kick my butt for that ^^] I've had similarly very nice experiences in France at the German border (south west that is).

pfarnsworth 10y ago

I will never, ever tip my Uber driver. It's one of the banes of Western living and I'm so happy that Uber doesn't include tipping in the app, if they did it would make it far less valuable to me. Feel free to not drop prices so aggressively, but please do not add tipping.

homulilly 10y ago

Tipping is a barbaric practice. If drivers aren't making enough they should be advocating for higher wages instead of complaining that Uber doesn't make it easy enough for them to take bribes.

JoshTriplett 10y ago

This title seems editorialized: the title here on HN is ambiguous about whether the "reason" is "because of" or "to prevent", while the title of the actual article makes that clearer. If drivers aren't getting paid enough to want to drive for a particular company, they should build the "tip" into the price, to make sure everyone gets paid enough. But the right response to good/bad service is a rating, not a tip. A field for a tip implies that the "real" price is higher than advertised, because only a monster wouldn't tip, and that bad service just means a lower tip. A rating system makes sure that all drivers must provide good service, and the company should be making sure they get paid accordingly. Transportation isn't a service where it's acceptable to have good drivers who get paid more and bad drivers who get paid less, no matter what mechanism implements that pay differential. There should only be "good" drivers.

rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
There are good reasons to tip a good driver beyond the stated cost of the service. Maybe they know the area well enough to get you through during rush hour. If you have a car seat you need to install and they can help quickly (as well as drive smoothly to keep the child from acting up) that is also a boon. If any service is exceptional, I am always happy to tip, even if I am already paying the full price (and living wage).
jasode 10y ago
>Transportation isn't a service where it's acceptable to have good drivers who get paid more and bad drivers who get paid less, no matter what mechanism implements that pay differential. There should only be "good" drivers. Of course, there's no universal authority on what "tipping" actually means but I think many people (both the riders & drivers) understand that tipping is for the "service" portion that's not related to the driving. E.g. carrying the suitcases, pointing out the landmarks like a tourist guide, etc. The "driving" component of getting from point A to point B in a safe manner, without making incompetent U-turns, etc is the baseline. The tipping isn't for that. E.g. I usually don't tip the Hertz/Avis car rental bus driver but if I'm trying to carry 3 bags and he helps me with them, I will tip him. All that said, it's possible that some Uber drivers want extra tip money just for the sake of extra money. Like others, I also prefer transactions where there is no tipping expected. It would be annoying to scramble for some loose dollar bills to tip the flight attendants as I try to rush off the airplane to make a connection.

deleted 10y ago

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Kiro 10y ago

I live in a country where tipping basically doesn't exist. It's such a foreign concept to me that I'm afraid of going to the states. It's almost like removing all price tags and having to guess what things cost, with repercussion if you pay too little.

kylecordes 10y ago

I'm not much of an Uber customer. Maybe five trips a year when I am in the city where Uber is big. So maybe people like me don't matter. But: Tipping would make the whole thing much worse. I would be much happier if they would raise their rates systemwide by whatever percentage is warranted, and pay appropriately. If I wanted a bad experience, I would take a taxi. If they go this route, among other things they are opening the door to be Ubered by the next Uber.

st3v3r 10y ago
They're not going to raise rates, and they're not going to raise what they pay drivers.

apeace 10y ago

When I use Uber, I frequently ask the drivers how often they get tips. They tell me that about one third of the time, the rider gives them some cash. (This is anecdotal of course, but I've asked roughly 30 drivers. Some drivers say they never get tips). FWIW, I have found that Uber drivers are frequently eager to talk about their experience with Uber and their opinions. I've heard a wide range of feedback from "Uber is evil but I need this job" to "Uber changed my life". But all drivers seem to agree tipping should be built in.

sangd 10y ago

I admitted that tipping gives a good incentive to the person providing the service as I myself felt before. But I dislike tipping as I see people react differently whether you tip or not and the amount you tip. It was quite hard for me to really know what percentage to tip the person happy and to continue a good service. How do you gauge the quality of the service to tip 15-25% or even higher? That's just playing with our emotion.

mc32 10y ago

I don't like the practice of tipping. I want the total price baked in. So, I agree on the no tipping policy but painting tipping as racist because people may tip along racial and gender lines is ridiculous. That's the same as saying when people date and marry they are expressions of racism because people typically intermarry. So it dilutes the whole meaning of racism and reduces it to a politically weak tool.

nickfrostatx 10y ago

The article admits that information from eight drives is "a hopelessly anecdotal number"... then goes on for several paragraphs to imply that these eight drivers are evidence to systematically disprove Uber's claims about racism and sexism. Completely bogus.

roflchoppa 10y ago

I remember when i was working at a fruit stand company, they said we could not be tipped... However that did not stop this guy from New York from tipping me, i recall he said, "For the service you provided i could not asked for anything else, where I'm from if you get good service you tip" I find it funny because it's directly against that whole "racism bit"

gmarx 10y ago

"...Yet the fact that she had just sued her former venture capital firm for discrimination tends to prove Pao is all-in on this egalitarian thing." Is that sarcasm?

neves 10y ago

Tipping would mess Uber's reviews. The drivers would give a good review just for who gave a big tip.

nickpsecurity 10y ago

I'm for eliminating tipping in favor of just paying the people as part of the service. That said, there's one angle these kind of articles never mention: the oft-repeated claim that black people don't tip as often, which would hurt drivers too. Almost every waiter or waitress I know down here says this. A good chunk are black men or women. Rather than never tip, they say they're less likely to tip and often for less money. The exceptions (and job security) keep them delivering good service where they can. They just don't expect anything to come out of it. Strange that I never see that angle on public sites covering discrimination but hear it from black waiters all the time. I'd like to see a survey of various areas with careful questions on the subject to see how true it is, in what areas, and what combinations of race/gender for both waiter and table. Also, if it's more or less likely with groups vs single seats. Anyone know a study or hear similar things from your waiters locally? Or is it better in your area?

ianstormtaylor 10y ago

I liked seeing that the author clearly pointed out that the data they collected was not anywhere near statistically significant... > Eight drivers sent me a report covering all their rides during a week in April, a hopelessly anecdotal number, but enough to learn more than [Lyft] will release. But then a few paragraphs later... > These results don’t look great for Uber’s hypothetical claims: the one female in the lineup made the best tips. And the black driver, so disfavored in all the academic studies, emerged a bit below average. No, no, no! A "lineup" of 8 people carries no weight at all against Uber's claims. It's frustrating to see articles being shared that have blatantly wrong conclusion-drawing practices like this.

aeorgnoieang 10y ago

Something related, tho not something I've previously heard or read about, is whether Uber is rationally deciding that its current 'low' prices/fares are optimal, from the perspective of maximizing profits. In a lot of comments on this thread people claim to prefer to pay a higher price than tip. If driver's are upset at poor pay, I'd expect Uber to care – all else being equal. And if Uber could increase its profits by raising prices, I'd expect it do so. I wouldn't expect all price increases to fully benefit drivers alone. So, given that Uber seems to be applying significant pressure to keep prices and fares low, why are they doing so if not to maximize their long-term profits?

aaroninsf 10y ago
As a customer accustomed to being catered to by Uber, you might indeed expect Uber to care. In actuality both Uber and Lyft have been _relentlessly_ driving employee wages ("contractor rates") down to the lowest possible sustainable level. That's their business model of course: colonize a regulated industry and make hay as long as possible using technology to dodge established regulation while externalizing as many costs as possible. Works out great! Except for the employees. My mother drove until last week for both Uber and Lyft in the Bay Area. Over the last 18-20 months her take home earnings were reduced to about _one third_ what they were when she began. So she gave it up. Personally I cannot _wait_ for regulation to catch up with these companies. Of course, they might completely eliminate their driver base via self-driving fleet vehicles before it does... ...though I suspect their business model if they're still around at that point (or that of whoever 'disrupts' them) will be leasing self-driving cars from private individuals. Why maintain a fleet when it's clear asking subcontractors to do so for you is so profitable?

Overtonwindow 10y ago

Tipping is too personal and needs to go in general. I think tipping does lead to classism, racism, and an overall awkward experience. Going to other countries where tipping is not expected is really refreshing. I vote to pay more than to be put into a tipping situation.