11 ms·

And I respectfully disagree with you. Money has been taken from citizens by the authorities in an unlawful manner. Money has to be given back. I don't know wha

by rsp1984 10y ago

And I respectfully disagree with you. Money has been taken from citizens by the authorities in an unlawful manner. Money has to be given back. I don't know what more to say about this matter. If I steal 200$ out of your pocket and you find out, my feeling is you would want your money back, not an apology and my heartfelt assurance that it won't happen again...

klean92 10y ago
I am afraid it would cost $2M to try to pay back $1.7M... i think they should first spend their time and $$ in making sure they fix the issues going forward.
- michaelmrose 10y ago
  Nobody cares how much more it costs you to do the right thing after the fact. Example paying a parking meter.
- newjersey 10y ago
  Find the money somewhere. Take it out of the police chief's pay for all I care. In fact, I don't think just returning the money is enough. The money should be returned with interest as if it were put into a municipal bond. The worst part is that every time this happens, the taxpayers are on the hook. I think nothing will change as long as wrong decisions doesn't hurt the decision-makers. I don't know how to implement this but something has to give. When in doubt, officers should err on the side of not writing tickets. Unrelated but our police officers need stronger protection from the insanity of things like quotas. Make it immensely profitable for an officer to whistleblow situations where they are required to collect $n in fines or write n tickets. Make it a federal law and take that money ($10MM per incidence per officer sounds like a good start, the point is it has to be high enough that there won't be peer pressure for an officer to "get in line") from the department. If they can't pay, too bad. The municipality/county doesn't deserve a police force.
- RealGeek 10y ago
  > I am afraid it would cost $2M to try to pay back $1.7M How much did it cost them to issue tickets and collect that $1.7 million? Do they use the same logic while issuing tickets and collecting fines?
- marincounty 10y ago
  Make them pay from the top down. Don't decimate a department, but make it sting. Make it sting so much, cops/meter maids know their municipal codes/law to the tee. It's not even about laws? We all know it's about revenue collection. That's why we are a bit miffed. I think the bigger problem is how many of us have been pulled over for no reason, ticketed for no reason, harrrased for no reason, paid a huge fee--that was for all reasonable purposes was unconstitutional--someting about ureasonable fees, or fines. Some admendment that has been forgotten about because it's been so abused. See, we are not upset over this little incident. We are projecting our outrage over being trampled upon for years. Our only recourse has been showing up in court, and we all know how that goes, "Well I'm sorry sir. I see no reason to question the officer."
- throwaway2048 10y ago
  I wonder if they would accept this excuse after I "forgot" to pay a parking meter.
- kika 10y ago
  If I steal $200 worth of booze from the store they will spend thousands if not tens of thousand to prosecute me. Using this logic they should just take my apology and let me go with the booze.
JoeAltmaier 10y ago
But traffic tickets are just a game. The rules change, folks use the old rules sometimes mistakenly, should we go back and change the score? Also these are folks who didn't challenge it the first time around - are they going to get up in arms now? I'm guessing not.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Traffic tickets are not "just a game" and if you believe that then I challenge you to drive in a place where they aren't issued. Laws change because we learn from experience and over time situations change.
mioelnir 10y ago
But can you prove the money was innocent and lawfully acquired?
bobbles 10y ago
Wow I can't believe all the people disagreeing with you. They unlawfully issued tickets, were made aware that they were unlawful, and don't want to refund the money ??? I must be taking crazy pills for people to think this is ok.
- themartorana 10y ago
  And further, using the excuse "it would cost more to refund than was collected" as the reason to not make right with the people wronged. How much is ticket in NYC? I'm betting it stings, and like here in Philadelphia, the cost of contesting a ticket (in lost wages, navigating a system very much meant to discourage you from contesting a ticket), especially for blue-collar workers, is less affordable than paying the ticket. This is the NYPD - the most police-state police force in the country, responsible for such hits as Stop-And-Frisk, Eric Garner, and many other human rights abuses.[0] You think they'd be so lenient with you if you offered them an apology? Quick reminder about the title of the article - "The NYPD Was Systematically Ticketing Legally Parked Cars for Millions of Dollars a Year." Systematically. [0] http://gothamist.com/2012/07/25/report_nypd_handling_of_occupy_wall.php http://gothamist.com/2012/07/25/report_nypd_handling_of_occu...
- Arnt 10y ago
  What's the statute of limitations for such things in NY? The very point of the statute of limitations is to limit how much of the present is spent digging up the past.
  - shawn-butler 10y ago
    Hearings are not granted for tickets issued over 1 year ago.[0] The owner must submit a Request for Hearing after Judgment form to fight the ticket. If the request for hearing after judgment is granted, the judge will hear the defense to the parking ticket. If the request is not granted, no hearing will be held and the total fine, interest, and penalties will be due. [0]: http://www1.nyc.gov/nyc-resources/service/1652/fight-a-parking-ticket http://www1.nyc.gov/nyc-resources/service/1652/fight-a-parki...
- Bartweiss 10y ago
Aloha 10y ago
I'd likely cost more to refund the money than the value of it - and honestly, if you got a parking ticket in error, its up to you to contest it - its not like the tickets were written in bad faith.
- msandford 10y ago
  > its not like the tickets were written in bad faith. There's been a huge proliferation of laws in the last ~20 years or so which are categorized as Strict Liability. Taxes have always been like this, but lately a lot of new laws have said "follow this or else" full stop. Since normal everyday citizens are being held to strict liability every day, I see no reason to be so forgiving of officers. I'm not suggesting that they're bad people, or deserve to go to jail for making an honest mistake. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander and if normal folks are being punished this way, so should law enforcement, politicians, etc. Nobody should be exempt, the law is the law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal)
  - themartorana 10y ago
    Can't up vote this enough."Ignorance of the law is not an excuse" is played out on the citizens of NYC (and elsewhere) on the daily. Don't let authority off so easy. Hold those that would hold you liable, liable.
    - tbyehl 10y ago
      > Ignorance of the law is not an excuse Supreme Court says otherwise, if you're a cop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heien_v._North_Carolina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heien_v._North_Carolina
      - Bartweiss 10y ago
        While that's an interesting (and somewhat concerning) result, it doesn't go as far as this case. Heien was about meeting 4th Amendment probable cause standards to prosecute a different crime. This is about ticketing people over the non-criminal act out of ignorance. It's like if Heien had been fined over the brake lights even though they were legal. As is, the NYC statue of limitations will strip most of these people of the right to contest tickets that were given for non-crimes.
mbrameld 10y ago
I think a better analogy would be income taxes. If I make a mistake that causes the government to give me more money than I'm due they take it back whether I want to give it back or not. It should be the same when the government makes a mistake that causes me to give it more money than it's due.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
nhaehnle 10y ago
Your analogy doesn't really work because while there is all this outrage by some people here, I haven't actually seen evidence so far of the NYPD refusing to issue refunds. The thing is, there doesn't seem to be a cheap and automatic way to (a) accurately filter out all incorrect tickets and (b) track the people down who were wrongfully ticketed. (Yes, analyzing the thousands of different parking spots where tickets were issued for their legality is an expensive process - and there's bound to be a very long tail.) So it seems pretty clear to me that attempting a proactive refund would be an expensive waste of money. Yes, the police are responsible for doing their job right, and that's what they're doing now. It would sure feel great to punish some scapegoat in hindsight, but this is a classic case where it's difficult to pin the blame - remember, it was a systemic problem where one (small) subgroup of officers failed to be properly trained after a rules change. People who have been wrongfully ticketed should contest the ticket, it's as simple as that.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  >analyzing the thousands of different parking spots where tickets were issued for their legality is an expensive process With data about exact location of where each ticket was issued, it wouldn't have to be expensive.
- bogomipz 10y ago
  It's not difficult to pinpoint blame and there is no scapegoat. "Brooklyn’s 70th Precinct seems to have the most cars wrongly ticketed, bringing in over $100,000 in fines a year. The 77th, also in Brooklyn, comes in second:" That's not an oversight. That's a systematic abuse of the public trust. How about people that didn't know they were wrongfully ticketed and fined? How about people that couldn't take the time off to dispute the ticket? Its extortionate. I hope the next time you are on the wrong side of a municipal fine you remember you remember your glib words. Its as simple as that.
  - cunac 10y ago
    that is one conclusion , other is that those two have the most parking spots affected by the change of the law so proportionally they made more mistakes
eric_h 10y ago
It can be argued that money was freely given by people who were issued tickets because they didn't want to deal with challenging the ticket in court. I've done the same (got an open container ticket on the boardwalk in coney island, where they sell beer. the cop said you have to drink it within 20ft of the establishment that sold it). Admittedly, in that particular case they dismissed the fine and sent me my check back.

by rsp1984 10y ago

klean92 10y ago

I am afraid it would cost $2M to try to pay back $1.7M... i think they should first spend their time and $$ in making sure they fix the issues going forward.

michaelmrose 10y ago
Nobody cares how much more it costs you to do the right thing after the fact. Example paying a parking meter.
newjersey 10y ago
Find the money somewhere. Take it out of the police chief's pay for all I care. In fact, I don't think just returning the money is enough. The money should be returned with interest as if it were put into a municipal bond. The worst part is that every time this happens, the taxpayers are on the hook. I think nothing will change as long as wrong decisions doesn't hurt the decision-makers. I don't know how to implement this but something has to give. When in doubt, officers should err on the side of not writing tickets. Unrelated but our police officers need stronger protection from the insanity of things like quotas. Make it immensely profitable for an officer to whistleblow situations where they are required to collect $n in fines or write n tickets. Make it a federal law and take that money ($10MM per incidence per officer sounds like a good start, the point is it has to be high enough that there won't be peer pressure for an officer to "get in line") from the department. If they can't pay, too bad. The municipality/county doesn't deserve a police force.
RealGeek 10y ago
> I am afraid it would cost $2M to try to pay back $1.7M How much did it cost them to issue tickets and collect that $1.7 million? Do they use the same logic while issuing tickets and collecting fines?
marincounty 10y ago
Make them pay from the top down. Don't decimate a department, but make it sting. Make it sting so much, cops/meter maids know their municipal codes/law to the tee. It's not even about laws? We all know it's about revenue collection. That's why we are a bit miffed. I think the bigger problem is how many of us have been pulled over for no reason, ticketed for no reason, harrrased for no reason, paid a huge fee--that was for all reasonable purposes was unconstitutional--someting about ureasonable fees, or fines. Some admendment that has been forgotten about because it's been so abused. See, we are not upset over this little incident. We are projecting our outrage over being trampled upon for years. Our only recourse has been showing up in court, and we all know how that goes, "Well I'm sorry sir. I see no reason to question the officer."
throwaway2048 10y ago
I wonder if they would accept this excuse after I "forgot" to pay a parking meter.
kika 10y ago
If I steal $200 worth of booze from the store they will spend thousands if not tens of thousand to prosecute me. Using this logic they should just take my apology and let me go with the booze.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago

But traffic tickets are just a game. The rules change, folks use the old rules sometimes mistakenly, should we go back and change the score? Also these are folks who didn't challenge it the first time around - are they going to get up in arms now? I'm guessing not.

nommm-nommm 10y ago
Traffic tickets are not "just a game" and if you believe that then I challenge you to drive in a place where they aren't issued. Laws change because we learn from experience and over time situations change.

mioelnir 10y ago

But can you prove the money was innocent and lawfully acquired?

bobbles 10y ago

Wow I can't believe all the people disagreeing with you. They unlawfully issued tickets, were made aware that they were unlawful, and don't want to refund the money ??? I must be taking crazy pills for people to think this is ok.

themartorana 10y ago
And further, using the excuse "it would cost more to refund than was collected" as the reason to not make right with the people wronged. How much is ticket in NYC? I'm betting it stings, and like here in Philadelphia, the cost of contesting a ticket (in lost wages, navigating a system very much meant to discourage you from contesting a ticket), especially for blue-collar workers, is less affordable than paying the ticket. This is the NYPD - the most police-state police force in the country, responsible for such hits as Stop-And-Frisk, Eric Garner, and many other human rights abuses.[0] You think they'd be so lenient with you if you offered them an apology? Quick reminder about the title of the article - "The NYPD Was Systematically Ticketing Legally Parked Cars for Millions of Dollars a Year." Systematically. [0] http://gothamist.com/2012/07/25/report_nypd_handling_of_occupy_wall.php http://gothamist.com/2012/07/25/report_nypd_handling_of_occu...
Arnt 10y ago
What's the statute of limitations for such things in NY? The very point of the statute of limitations is to limit how much of the present is spent digging up the past.
- shawn-butler 10y ago
  Hearings are not granted for tickets issued over 1 year ago.[0] The owner must submit a Request for Hearing after Judgment form to fight the ticket. If the request for hearing after judgment is granted, the judge will hear the defense to the parking ticket. If the request is not granted, no hearing will be held and the total fine, interest, and penalties will be due. [0]: http://www1.nyc.gov/nyc-resources/service/1652/fight-a-parking-ticket http://www1.nyc.gov/nyc-resources/service/1652/fight-a-parki...
Bartweiss 10y ago

Aloha 10y ago

I'd likely cost more to refund the money than the value of it - and honestly, if you got a parking ticket in error, its up to you to contest it - its not like the tickets were written in bad faith.

msandford 10y ago
> its not like the tickets were written in bad faith. There's been a huge proliferation of laws in the last ~20 years or so which are categorized as Strict Liability. Taxes have always been like this, but lately a lot of new laws have said "follow this or else" full stop. Since normal everyday citizens are being held to strict liability every day, I see no reason to be so forgiving of officers. I'm not suggesting that they're bad people, or deserve to go to jail for making an honest mistake. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander and if normal folks are being punished this way, so should law enforcement, politicians, etc. Nobody should be exempt, the law is the law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_(criminal)
- themartorana 10y ago
  Can't up vote this enough."Ignorance of the law is not an excuse" is played out on the citizens of NYC (and elsewhere) on the daily. Don't let authority off so easy. Hold those that would hold you liable, liable.
  - tbyehl 10y ago
    > Ignorance of the law is not an excuse Supreme Court says otherwise, if you're a cop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heien_v._North_Carolina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heien_v._North_Carolina
    - Bartweiss 10y ago
      While that's an interesting (and somewhat concerning) result, it doesn't go as far as this case. Heien was about meeting 4th Amendment probable cause standards to prosecute a different crime. This is about ticketing people over the non-criminal act out of ignorance. It's like if Heien had been fined over the brake lights even though they were legal. As is, the NYC statue of limitations will strip most of these people of the right to contest tickets that were given for non-crimes.

mbrameld 10y ago

I think a better analogy would be income taxes. If I make a mistake that causes the government to give me more money than I'm due they take it back whether I want to give it back or not. It should be the same when the government makes a mistake that causes me to give it more money than it's due.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

nhaehnle 10y ago

Your analogy doesn't really work because while there is all this outrage by some people here, I haven't actually seen evidence so far of the NYPD refusing to issue refunds. The thing is, there doesn't seem to be a cheap and automatic way to (a) accurately filter out all incorrect tickets and (b) track the people down who were wrongfully ticketed. (Yes, analyzing the thousands of different parking spots where tickets were issued for their legality is an expensive process - and there's bound to be a very long tail.) So it seems pretty clear to me that attempting a proactive refund would be an expensive waste of money. Yes, the police are responsible for doing their job right, and that's what they're doing now. It would sure feel great to punish some scapegoat in hindsight, but this is a classic case where it's difficult to pin the blame - remember, it was a systemic problem where one (small) subgroup of officers failed to be properly trained after a rules change. People who have been wrongfully ticketed should contest the ticket, it's as simple as that.

ptaipale 10y ago
>analyzing the thousands of different parking spots where tickets were issued for their legality is an expensive process With data about exact location of where each ticket was issued, it wouldn't have to be expensive.
bogomipz 10y ago
It's not difficult to pinpoint blame and there is no scapegoat. "Brooklyn’s 70th Precinct seems to have the most cars wrongly ticketed, bringing in over $100,000 in fines a year. The 77th, also in Brooklyn, comes in second:" That's not an oversight. That's a systematic abuse of the public trust. How about people that didn't know they were wrongfully ticketed and fined? How about people that couldn't take the time off to dispute the ticket? Its extortionate. I hope the next time you are on the wrong side of a municipal fine you remember you remember your glib words. Its as simple as that.
- cunac 10y ago
  that is one conclusion , other is that those two have the most parking spots affected by the change of the law so proportionally they made more mistakes

eric_h 10y ago

It can be argued that money was freely given by people who were issued tickets because they didn't want to deal with challenging the ticket in court. I've done the same (got an open container ticket on the boardwalk in coney island, where they sell beer. the cop said you have to drink it within 20ft of the establishment that sold it). Admittedly, in that particular case they dismissed the fine and sent me my check back.