5 ms·

Gender is irrelevant when it comes to harassment. Men and women both can be harassed. Also, guy is gender neutral, it's 2016.

by svote1 10y ago

pc86 10y ago
I don't consider myself a feminist by any stretch, and I'm a pretty conservative person generally (certainly more conservative than most of HN). But Jesus Christ, the definition of "guy" is literally "a man." Let's not start this "I didn't mean the actual definition of the word when I said it" trope. And I didn't say gender had anything to do with harassment. We're discussing the article, which happens to be written by a woman.
- busterarm 10y ago
  Absolutely incorrect. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/14/the-origin-of-the-word-guy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...
  - peterwwillis 10y ago
    It's not incorrect. Guy does mean "a man." Gal means "a woman." Those are their uses today. They are as gendered as "man". And just so I can get really pedantic: gender is inferred as a context of speech. If you are calling a cis-woman "guy" or "dude", it is inferred you are speaking colloquially. If you call a transwoman "guy" or "dude", it is inferred [by the subject] that you are mis-gendering them, and is offensive. And more to the point of the context of the (now-deleted) comment: if you say "guy", "he", "him", and "dude" all about the same subject, you are calling the subject a man. You can't argue your way around blatantly misgendering someone multiple times.
    - busterarm 10y ago
      That's the thing about language though. It is because you choose it to be so. Other people choose for 'guys' and 'dude' to have a different meaning. Collectively we decide who wins. Nobody is right or wrong in the present because it's a never-ending battle over an idea. Words change over time - always have and always will. You can only be right historically in context. 'Guy', _historically_, does not mean 'man'. What it means now is your interpretation. You should not get so bent out of shape because other people disagree with you. There is an inherent problem with basing gender-politics around the meanings of words. How do you deal with people coming from languages that do not have gendered pronouns that are trying to translate their language into English? Do you beat them over the head for how wrong they are (before you say no, I've seen it countless times)? Also hey, guess what. 'He' has seen use as a gender-neutral pronoun well into the 1960s.
      - peterwwillis 10y ago
        So you're saying it doesn't matter what you call someone, because hey, interpretations.
        busterarm 10y ago
        No, intent is what matters, not your feelings about certain words. I can't control whether you get upset or not but I can control whether I intended to offend. Note this is not the same as ignoring someone's expressed choice (when being directly addressed) if they have an issue with certain words.
        peterwwillis 10y ago
        You have lots of control over whether someone gets upset. Don't call someone a racial or sexual slur and don't misgender them, for example. If you know some use of language is or could be problematic, don't use it. If you're not aware what language that may be and accidentally offend someone, obviously you shouldn't be held at fault, but you should then take it upon yourself to learn what the problem was so you don't repeat it. Because I personally know people who see 'guy' as a gender-specific word - and because the dictionary says "guy" means "a man" - I know i'm not going to ever call a woman "guy", because it may offend them. I think this is a pretty simple concept...
        kbenson 10y ago
        > If you know some use of language is or could be problematic, don't use it. I believe this is the disconnect between your argument and the prior commentor's comment. This falls under "Note this is not the same as ignoring someone's expressed choice (when being directly addressed) if they have an issue with certain words." The issue is whether the person speaking should know and consider guys to be gendered, and possibly offensive. The fact some people are saying it's not gendered is evidence that's it's ambiguous to some people. To assume someone was purposefully misgendering you without knowledge of whether it's an honest mistake, as we've seen it might be, is not conducive to communication. > Because I personally know people who see 'guy' as a gender-specific word - and because the dictionary says "guy" means "a man" - I know i'm not going to ever call a woman "guy", because it may offend them. Which is fine, but you've been presented with evidence that all people don't necessarily have that same knowledge. You can continue to assume that this knowledge must be universal and people that act in opposition to it are doing so purposefully and without regard for the feelings of others, or you can extend the benefit of a doubt, and assume until further evidence to the contrary that they are misinformed about what you believe to be true. I believe giving the benefit of a doubt it more useful and leads to better outcomes in almost every respect.
    - Nadya 10y ago
      >They are as gendered as "man". Linguistically, "man" is still gender neutral in many contexts and even any dictionary recognizes this. Oxford, Cambridge, take your pick! Usually cited as #2 or #3 in the list of definitions. >If you call a transwoman "guy" or "dude", it is inferred [by the subject] that you are mis-gendering them, and is offensive. To 'some' and I prefer that 'some' do not speak for 'all'. In case I need an example: I do not take offense at this. I prefer people continue to use whatever gendered pronoun they're more comfortable with. I don't need or seek their validation and I'm not so fragile that their choice of word bothers me.
throw_away1 10y ago
Very true. When I was at my first job when I was 16, I had a female manager. I didn't think anything of it. Well, she had a thing for tall men (and high school boys). I wanted nothing of it. So when she laid it on thick, I told her I appreciated the attention and compliments, but I want to be single for the time being. She didn't quit. Well, she did it around the district manager. Fired on the spot.
kebolio 10y ago
irrelevant to whether i agree with you or not, stating the current year is not a valid argument for change.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
zepto 10y ago
Yes, men can be harassed by women. That doesn't mean that sexism isn't still a major problem, even in 2016.

Gender is irrelevant when it comes to harassment. Men and women both can be harassed. Also, guy is gender neutral, it's 2016.

by svote1 10y ago

Gender is irrelevant when it comes to harassment. Men and women both can be harassed. Also, guy is gender neutral, it's 2016.

pc86 10y ago

I don't consider myself a feminist by any stretch, and I'm a pretty conservative person generally (certainly more conservative than most of HN). But Jesus Christ, the definition of "guy" is literally "a man." Let's not start this "I didn't mean the actual definition of the word when I said it" trope. And I didn't say gender had anything to do with harassment. We're discussing the article, which happens to be written by a woman.

busterarm 10y ago
Absolutely incorrect. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/14/the-origin-of-the-word-guy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...
- peterwwillis 10y ago
  It's not incorrect. Guy does mean "a man." Gal means "a woman." Those are their uses today. They are as gendered as "man". And just so I can get really pedantic: gender is inferred as a context of speech. If you are calling a cis-woman "guy" or "dude", it is inferred you are speaking colloquially. If you call a transwoman "guy" or "dude", it is inferred [by the subject] that you are mis-gendering them, and is offensive. And more to the point of the context of the (now-deleted) comment: if you say "guy", "he", "him", and "dude" all about the same subject, you are calling the subject a man. You can't argue your way around blatantly misgendering someone multiple times.
  - busterarm 10y ago
    That's the thing about language though. It is because you choose it to be so. Other people choose for 'guys' and 'dude' to have a different meaning. Collectively we decide who wins. Nobody is right or wrong in the present because it's a never-ending battle over an idea. Words change over time - always have and always will. You can only be right historically in context. 'Guy', _historically_, does not mean 'man'. What it means now is your interpretation. You should not get so bent out of shape because other people disagree with you. There is an inherent problem with basing gender-politics around the meanings of words. How do you deal with people coming from languages that do not have gendered pronouns that are trying to translate their language into English? Do you beat them over the head for how wrong they are (before you say no, I've seen it countless times)? Also hey, guess what. 'He' has seen use as a gender-neutral pronoun well into the 1960s.
    - peterwwillis 10y ago
      So you're saying it doesn't matter what you call someone, because hey, interpretations.
      - busterarm 10y ago
        No, intent is what matters, not your feelings about certain words. I can't control whether you get upset or not but I can control whether I intended to offend. Note this is not the same as ignoring someone's expressed choice (when being directly addressed) if they have an issue with certain words.
        peterwwillis 10y ago
        You have lots of control over whether someone gets upset. Don't call someone a racial or sexual slur and don't misgender them, for example. If you know some use of language is or could be problematic, don't use it. If you're not aware what language that may be and accidentally offend someone, obviously you shouldn't be held at fault, but you should then take it upon yourself to learn what the problem was so you don't repeat it. Because I personally know people who see 'guy' as a gender-specific word - and because the dictionary says "guy" means "a man" - I know i'm not going to ever call a woman "guy", because it may offend them. I think this is a pretty simple concept...
        kbenson 10y ago
        > If you know some use of language is or could be problematic, don't use it. I believe this is the disconnect between your argument and the prior commentor's comment. This falls under "Note this is not the same as ignoring someone's expressed choice (when being directly addressed) if they have an issue with certain words." The issue is whether the person speaking should know and consider guys to be gendered, and possibly offensive. The fact some people are saying it's not gendered is evidence that's it's ambiguous to some people. To assume someone was purposefully misgendering you without knowledge of whether it's an honest mistake, as we've seen it might be, is not conducive to communication. > Because I personally know people who see 'guy' as a gender-specific word - and because the dictionary says "guy" means "a man" - I know i'm not going to ever call a woman "guy", because it may offend them. Which is fine, but you've been presented with evidence that all people don't necessarily have that same knowledge. You can continue to assume that this knowledge must be universal and people that act in opposition to it are doing so purposefully and without regard for the feelings of others, or you can extend the benefit of a doubt, and assume until further evidence to the contrary that they are misinformed about what you believe to be true. I believe giving the benefit of a doubt it more useful and leads to better outcomes in almost every respect.
  - Nadya 10y ago
    >They are as gendered as "man". Linguistically, "man" is still gender neutral in many contexts and even any dictionary recognizes this. Oxford, Cambridge, take your pick! Usually cited as #2 or #3 in the list of definitions. >If you call a transwoman "guy" or "dude", it is inferred [by the subject] that you are mis-gendering them, and is offensive. To 'some' and I prefer that 'some' do not speak for 'all'. In case I need an example: I do not take offense at this. I prefer people continue to use whatever gendered pronoun they're more comfortable with. I don't need or seek their validation and I'm not so fragile that their choice of word bothers me.

throw_away1 10y ago

Very true. When I was at my first job when I was 16, I had a female manager. I didn't think anything of it. Well, she had a thing for tall men (and high school boys). I wanted nothing of it. So when she laid it on thick, I told her I appreciated the attention and compliments, but I want to be single for the time being. She didn't quit. Well, she did it around the district manager. Fired on the spot.

kebolio 10y ago

irrelevant to whether i agree with you or not, stating the current year is not a valid argument for change.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

zepto 10y ago

Yes, men can be harassed by women. That doesn't mean that sexism isn't still a major problem, even in 2016.