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Why didn't you quote the full sentence: "Electron has lowered the barrier to developing desktop applications, making it possible for developers to build cross-

by usaphp 10y ago

Why didn't you quote the full sentence: "Electron has lowered the barrier to developing desktop applications, making it possible for developers to build cross-platform apps using HTML, CSS, and JavaScript" I don't see anything wrong with that statement, Electron really lowered the barrier of entry by allowing using HTML, CSS and Javascript to build cross platform apps, before you had to learn a new language to make it happen (Swift, QT etc). > "Please, use the right tool for the right job." I would rather use a tool that I know and build something functional fast, than spending many months learning new language just to make my app cross platform and losing interest because of that.

gbugniot 10y ago
It's wrong because that tends to persuade developers that there is one tool for every situation. If you build something functional fast with your favorite tool (not suited for the job), then you will probably spend many months maintaining/hacking your codebase to keep it functional and well designed.
- usaphp 10y ago
  It's still better than spending many months learning new language and not building anything functional at all. I would rather build something functional fast and see if it works and has demand.
  - gbugniot 10y ago
    If someone spend many months learning a new language, but still can't be able to build something functional with it, I think he has a bigger problem...
    - efrafa 10y ago
      Its more about why would you go spend few months learning something, if you can build it in few days with electron.
      - fredsir 10y ago
        Because you can't. An Electron app is not equal to a native app when it comes to UX and UI. Right off the bat: they require more resources to run, thus making your computer slower, a laptops battery last less on a single charge, and don't look and work like native apps thus requires the user to learn a new paradigm. So instead of you, the developer, using a couple of months to learn a new paradigm, you put that burden on your users, and end up with something that is a whole lot worse than standard native apps on Mac, Linux and Windows. If you only have 1 user, that is no hassle, but if you have 5 million users, that is a whole lot of time that a whole lot of users needs to spend collectively because you are lazy and want to ship something fast instead of shipping something great. And no, I have never tried a great Electron app. I don't think they exist.
        TeMPOraL 10y ago
        > If you only have 1 user, that is no hassle, but if you have 5 million users, that is a whole lot of time that a whole lot of users needs to spend collectively because you are lazy and want to ship something fast instead of shipping something great. Exactly. That's the externality a lot of software companies nowadays generate.
        oblio 10y ago
        What new paradigm? Almost every computer user out there knows the web paradigm. They use it on every platform. The barrier to entry for Electron apps is 0, the same as for native apps.
        fredsir 10y ago
        What are you talking about? Are you saying that because someone is adept at browsing Wikipedia or Hacker News, they intuitively know how to use Spotify and Slack and Atom?
        oceanswave 10y ago
        "they require more resources to run, thus making your computer slower, a laptops battery last less on a single charge," But yet you used a either a browser or the HN mobile app (cordova) to post here... guess that means function > fitness.
- threatofrain 10y ago
  How are you evaluating tool fitness here? The ultimate criteria for fitness are organizational / business goals, and that business or organization may have to juggle various constraints. Electron offers extra flexibility for businesses to make tradeoffs on app performance and size versus engineering cost, and that's its most important value. At first glance, Electron apps should be more maintainable, not less, because it's one toolset for multiple platforms, which should translate to faster development time and less total cost of maintenance at the tradeoff of app performance and size. Also, whether an app is difficult to maintain ought owe more whether (1) you have multiple diverse codebases and toolchains to maintain, and (2) that you have a disciplined engineering strategy. Again, whether or not Electron is the right tool for the job is a business decision based on business constraints.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    > How are you evaluating tool fitness here? The ultimate criteria for fitness are organizational / business goals, and that business or organization may have to juggle various constraints Unfortunately, usability and ergonomics are rarely reflected in business "fitness functions" (hell, even making an actually useful tool rarely is these days, thanks in part to marketing having better ROI than delivering value). Business people take care of business goals, and I think it's our responsibility as developers to make applications that don't suck, whether or not it is reflected in the organizational "fitness function".
svink 10y ago
You realize that maybe for someone, C++/QT isn't a new technology but HTML/CSS/JS are? Or neither are new, or both are new? The person who replied to you was right, you are making the assumption that everyone knows the web stack and knows nothing else. Electron tries to break the same barrier WebForms did but in the opposite direction. Hopefully it turns out better and doesn't result in a bunch of shitty desktop apps like WebForms resulted in a bunch of shitty web sites.
- rayiner 10y ago
  I never thought I'd see something that made Swing seem approachable, but now we have it.
- kedean 10y ago
  In all fairness, that's still a lowered barrier. The barrier is the sum of all parts, if desktop gui dev is easy for systems programmers and really hard for web devs, and this project makes it easy for web devs, then it has objectively lowered the barrier for entry. It doesn't matter if it's still just as hard for systems programmers.

by usaphp 10y ago

gbugniot 10y ago

It's wrong because that tends to persuade developers that there is one tool for every situation. If you build something functional fast with your favorite tool (not suited for the job), then you will probably spend many months maintaining/hacking your codebase to keep it functional and well designed.

usaphp 10y ago
It's still better than spending many months learning new language and not building anything functional at all. I would rather build something functional fast and see if it works and has demand.
- gbugniot 10y ago
  If someone spend many months learning a new language, but still can't be able to build something functional with it, I think he has a bigger problem...
  - efrafa 10y ago
    Its more about why would you go spend few months learning something, if you can build it in few days with electron.
    - fredsir 10y ago
      Because you can't. An Electron app is not equal to a native app when it comes to UX and UI. Right off the bat: they require more resources to run, thus making your computer slower, a laptops battery last less on a single charge, and don't look and work like native apps thus requires the user to learn a new paradigm. So instead of you, the developer, using a couple of months to learn a new paradigm, you put that burden on your users, and end up with something that is a whole lot worse than standard native apps on Mac, Linux and Windows. If you only have 1 user, that is no hassle, but if you have 5 million users, that is a whole lot of time that a whole lot of users needs to spend collectively because you are lazy and want to ship something fast instead of shipping something great. And no, I have never tried a great Electron app. I don't think they exist.
      - TeMPOraL 10y ago
        > If you only have 1 user, that is no hassle, but if you have 5 million users, that is a whole lot of time that a whole lot of users needs to spend collectively because you are lazy and want to ship something fast instead of shipping something great. Exactly. That's the externality a lot of software companies nowadays generate.
      - oblio 10y ago
        What new paradigm? Almost every computer user out there knows the web paradigm. They use it on every platform. The barrier to entry for Electron apps is 0, the same as for native apps.
        fredsir 10y ago
        What are you talking about? Are you saying that because someone is adept at browsing Wikipedia or Hacker News, they intuitively know how to use Spotify and Slack and Atom?
      - oceanswave 10y ago
        "they require more resources to run, thus making your computer slower, a laptops battery last less on a single charge," But yet you used a either a browser or the HN mobile app (cordova) to post here... guess that means function > fitness.
threatofrain 10y ago
How are you evaluating tool fitness here? The ultimate criteria for fitness are organizational / business goals, and that business or organization may have to juggle various constraints. Electron offers extra flexibility for businesses to make tradeoffs on app performance and size versus engineering cost, and that's its most important value. At first glance, Electron apps should be more maintainable, not less, because it's one toolset for multiple platforms, which should translate to faster development time and less total cost of maintenance at the tradeoff of app performance and size. Also, whether an app is difficult to maintain ought owe more whether (1) you have multiple diverse codebases and toolchains to maintain, and (2) that you have a disciplined engineering strategy. Again, whether or not Electron is the right tool for the job is a business decision based on business constraints.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  > How are you evaluating tool fitness here? The ultimate criteria for fitness are organizational / business goals, and that business or organization may have to juggle various constraints Unfortunately, usability and ergonomics are rarely reflected in business "fitness functions" (hell, even making an actually useful tool rarely is these days, thanks in part to marketing having better ROI than delivering value). Business people take care of business goals, and I think it's our responsibility as developers to make applications that don't suck, whether or not it is reflected in the organizational "fitness function".

svink 10y ago

You realize that maybe for someone, C++/QT isn't a new technology but HTML/CSS/JS are? Or neither are new, or both are new? The person who replied to you was right, you are making the assumption that everyone knows the web stack and knows nothing else. Electron tries to break the same barrier WebForms did but in the opposite direction. Hopefully it turns out better and doesn't result in a bunch of shitty desktop apps like WebForms resulted in a bunch of shitty web sites.

rayiner 10y ago
I never thought I'd see something that made Swing seem approachable, but now we have it.
kedean 10y ago
In all fairness, that's still a lowered barrier. The barrier is the sum of all parts, if desktop gui dev is easy for systems programmers and really hard for web devs, and this project makes it easy for web devs, then it has objectively lowered the barrier for entry. It doesn't matter if it's still just as hard for systems programmers.