5 ms·

Alas, you don't know what will happen until it does happen. It could be as simple as "Wow, Joe reported Bob for sexual harassment, but Bob didn't do anything w

Alas, you don't know what will happen until it does happen. It could be as simple as "Wow, Joe reported Bob for sexual harassment, but Bob didn't do anything wrong - I was there. Now I have to be extra-careful around Joe to avoid getting reported myself!" And there you go - Joe is now suffering from "retaliation" and being treated special for speaking up.

Nadya 10y ago
That is already happening in many professional contexts though - and without Joe ever having to speak up about anything. Male professors avoid being alone with female students. Male colleagues refuse to work with or to a lesser extent, refuse to be friendly on any sort of casual level with female colleagues entirely just because of the small risk that an accusation could cost them their job/career. This fear actively harms both genders.
- lotharbot 10y ago
  As a professional educator (at many different levels -- a college TA, a museum educator with K-12 programs, and working in an elementary school) the expectation I was given was to never be alone in a place that isn't publicly visible with any student under the age of 18, of any gender, ever. With students over the age of 18, there was still a strong expectation to keep student-teacher interactions semi-public. (I am male, but female instructors were given the same expectation at every stage.)
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    It's a smart move given what I've seen. The sad thing is that some of the best innovators started with one-on-one instruction from teachers that recognized their potential. Many people are also private or in a situation where their social circumstances might make them be more private about the research/project than usual. So, such policies reduce liability but probably have a cost to society. I thought about surveillance cameras as a solution. Then, a headline popped into mind: "voyeuristic professor discovered to have..." Just can't win when the threat is peoples' imagination and desire to find a negative. :)
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  It is. I even did it briefly a few times when claims were brought against me until things were sorted out. In one example, an attractive and persuasive woman sent a shit-storm of rumors and claims my way through various parties that I quickly traced to her. Fortunately, the people (including women) who knew me were able to spot that they were bogus since the good and bad of my style is well-known. Genuineness occasionally pays off I guess. And the claims didn't fit it. Further investigation confirmed my counter-claims that she wanted my job and the next promotion after it. Instead of outperforming me, she decided to simultaneously create situations where I looked unfit and sexist with rumors and a clique of buddies backing it up. They'd benefit if she was promoted. She never got fired like the guys do in similar situations in that company but did back-off and quit after upward-movement was cut off. I agree it harms both genders. Work was never fun during any of these situations as people started practicing self-censorship. Not just me or the men. It's why I fight such non-sense and Codes of Conduct that facilitate it, too. Fortunately, each event was taken care of, people became themselves again, and work went back to productive and fun. Cuz real people are more interesting than fake ones. :)
- gcatalfamo 10y ago
  Finally somebody has said it.
- joantune 10y ago
  and you know why that is? nothing on the OPs post reveals a clear infringement or harassment IMO. MILF is borderline a bad way to talk to someone, yet, everyone here is saying: FIRE HIM or FIRE THEM. It would be harassment if he continued after she said stop, it would be harassment if he groped her, it would be harassment if he talked clearly obscenely about her, MILF is borderline, and yet, everyone is saying, FIRE HIM. Guys, just give the benefit of the doubt, make it a clear statement that you on the workplace are clearly against any kind of advance that might happen between employees, and that's it.
  - illumin8 10y ago
    Asking someone on a date that isn't interested in you is harassment. Calling someone a MILF is definitely harassment. Do you seriously think telling someone in a professional setting that they're a mother you'd like to f--- is not harassment? When asking someone on a date that isn't interested in you is? Read your HR policies - if you don't, I suspect you'll be in trouble like this someday, based on your attitude towards this.
    - wnoise 10y ago
      > Asking someone on a date that isn't interested in you is harassment. Asking someone on a date when it is apparent that they aren't interested is harassment.
      - norikki 10y ago
        "Asking someone on a date when it is apparent that they aren't interested is harassment." > Having autism is harassment.
        wnoise 10y ago
        Well, yeah. If you don't fit the standard of "reasonable person", you're going to violate normal standards, and going to be judged harshly for it unless you put a lot of effort in.
    - 10y ago
tajen 10y ago
I already don't talk to women in tech conferences. Ok I'll use a different axis. The side effect of working hard on promoting women in tech and tracking harassement is prejudices on the innocent men. As a bystander I want to be given the confidence that men who are fired are guilty. I have seen 2 cases of termination of males, I'm the opposite of convinced. I've also seen more women being promoted than men. I've also seen the upgrade of codes of conduct in conferences from "the law" to "the law + we'll beat harassement". There is a lot of prejudice that men are violent, less smart and worse at communication than women. So of course companies and conferences must act on both harassement and increasing women-in-tech; but as a society we must also find a way to prove to males that innocent good-will ones are safe. As for me, for the moment I'm bitter against the promotion game, I've founded my own company and I'm voting against any progress of women.
- rpcastagna 10y ago
  > I've founded my own company and I'm voting against any progress of women. I'm not sure you're going to establish a moral high ground by explicitly opposing the progress of equality... I understand you have concerns and you may feel you've been wronged by "gender aware" policies/attitudes, but I don't think it's very controversial to say that women are historically disadvantaged and we need to work that out in some way, however that may be.
  - tajen 10y ago
    That's the opposite of what we want to happen? It's important to prove males that they aren't discriminated when we act on women's problems.

Nadya 10y ago

That is already happening in many professional contexts though - and without Joe ever having to speak up about anything. Male professors avoid being alone with female students. Male colleagues refuse to work with or to a lesser extent, refuse to be friendly on any sort of casual level with female colleagues entirely just because of the small risk that an accusation could cost them their job/career. This fear actively harms both genders.

lotharbot 10y ago
As a professional educator (at many different levels -- a college TA, a museum educator with K-12 programs, and working in an elementary school) the expectation I was given was to never be alone in a place that isn't publicly visible with any student under the age of 18, of any gender, ever. With students over the age of 18, there was still a strong expectation to keep student-teacher interactions semi-public. (I am male, but female instructors were given the same expectation at every stage.)
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  It's a smart move given what I've seen. The sad thing is that some of the best innovators started with one-on-one instruction from teachers that recognized their potential. Many people are also private or in a situation where their social circumstances might make them be more private about the research/project than usual. So, such policies reduce liability but probably have a cost to society. I thought about surveillance cameras as a solution. Then, a headline popped into mind: "voyeuristic professor discovered to have..." Just can't win when the threat is peoples' imagination and desire to find a negative. :)
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
nickpsecurity 10y ago
It is. I even did it briefly a few times when claims were brought against me until things were sorted out. In one example, an attractive and persuasive woman sent a shit-storm of rumors and claims my way through various parties that I quickly traced to her. Fortunately, the people (including women) who knew me were able to spot that they were bogus since the good and bad of my style is well-known. Genuineness occasionally pays off I guess. And the claims didn't fit it. Further investigation confirmed my counter-claims that she wanted my job and the next promotion after it. Instead of outperforming me, she decided to simultaneously create situations where I looked unfit and sexist with rumors and a clique of buddies backing it up. They'd benefit if she was promoted. She never got fired like the guys do in similar situations in that company but did back-off and quit after upward-movement was cut off. I agree it harms both genders. Work was never fun during any of these situations as people started practicing self-censorship. Not just me or the men. It's why I fight such non-sense and Codes of Conduct that facilitate it, too. Fortunately, each event was taken care of, people became themselves again, and work went back to productive and fun. Cuz real people are more interesting than fake ones. :)
gcatalfamo 10y ago
Finally somebody has said it.
joantune 10y ago
and you know why that is? nothing on the OPs post reveals a clear infringement or harassment IMO. MILF is borderline a bad way to talk to someone, yet, everyone here is saying: FIRE HIM or FIRE THEM. It would be harassment if he continued after she said stop, it would be harassment if he groped her, it would be harassment if he talked clearly obscenely about her, MILF is borderline, and yet, everyone is saying, FIRE HIM. Guys, just give the benefit of the doubt, make it a clear statement that you on the workplace are clearly against any kind of advance that might happen between employees, and that's it.
- illumin8 10y ago
  Asking someone on a date that isn't interested in you is harassment. Calling someone a MILF is definitely harassment. Do you seriously think telling someone in a professional setting that they're a mother you'd like to f--- is not harassment? When asking someone on a date that isn't interested in you is? Read your HR policies - if you don't, I suspect you'll be in trouble like this someday, based on your attitude towards this.
  - wnoise 10y ago
    > Asking someone on a date that isn't interested in you is harassment. Asking someone on a date when it is apparent that they aren't interested is harassment.
    - norikki 10y ago
      "Asking someone on a date when it is apparent that they aren't interested is harassment." > Having autism is harassment.
      - wnoise 10y ago
        Well, yeah. If you don't fit the standard of "reasonable person", you're going to violate normal standards, and going to be judged harshly for it unless you put a lot of effort in.
  - 10y ago

tajen 10y ago

I already don't talk to women in tech conferences. Ok I'll use a different axis. The side effect of working hard on promoting women in tech and tracking harassement is prejudices on the innocent men. As a bystander I want to be given the confidence that men who are fired are guilty. I have seen 2 cases of termination of males, I'm the opposite of convinced. I've also seen more women being promoted than men. I've also seen the upgrade of codes of conduct in conferences from "the law" to "the law + we'll beat harassement". There is a lot of prejudice that men are violent, less smart and worse at communication than women. So of course companies and conferences must act on both harassement and increasing women-in-tech; but as a society we must also find a way to prove to males that innocent good-will ones are safe. As for me, for the moment I'm bitter against the promotion game, I've founded my own company and I'm voting against any progress of women.

rpcastagna 10y ago
> I've founded my own company and I'm voting against any progress of women. I'm not sure you're going to establish a moral high ground by explicitly opposing the progress of equality... I understand you have concerns and you may feel you've been wronged by "gender aware" policies/attitudes, but I don't think it's very controversial to say that women are historically disadvantaged and we need to work that out in some way, however that may be.
- tajen 10y ago
  That's the opposite of what we want to happen? It's important to prove males that they aren't discriminated when we act on women's problems.