7 ms·

Great is a relative term. But, can you name an OS, especially a UNIX, that is better in the general case? By "general case", I mean, good for just about anythin

Great is a relative term. But, can you name an OS, especially a UNIX, that is better in the general case? By "general case", I mean, good for just about anything, even if there's something better for some niche or role. Also, take into account the world we live in: More computing happens on servers and phones than on desktops and laptops; and judge the OS based on how it's doing in those roles. I sincerely consider Linux a great UNIX. Probably the best UNIX that's existed, thus far. There are warts, sure. Technically, Solaris had (and still has, in IllumOS and SmartOS) a small handful of superior features and capabilities (at this point one can list them on one hand, and one could also list some "almost-there" similar techs on Linux). But, I assume you've used Solaris (or some other commercial UNIX) enough to have an opinion...can you honestly say you enjoyed working on it more than Linux? The userspace on Solaris was always drastically worse than Linux, unless you installed a ton of GNU utilities, a better desktop, etc. But, Linux brought us a UNIX we could realistically use anywhere, and at a price anyone could afford. That's a miracle for a kid that grew up lusting after an Amiga 3000UX (because it was the closest thing to an SGI Indy I could imagine being able to afford).

qwertyuiop924 11y ago
Fair 'nuff. And no, I haven't used commercial UNIXes all that much, but I have experienced plenty of Linux's warts. I do agree with a lot of those points, but containers on Linux just aren't there, systemd is a mess that's going to get pushed in no matter what we say, and there are plenty of issues to be had, although the ladder is true of any UNIX. If you want to know what the rest of the issues are, just start googling. And while you're at it, listen to some of Bryan Cantrill's talks. They are biased (obviously), but they're entertaining, and they do point out some things that I think are real problems (posix conformance (MADV_DONTNEED), and epoll semantics, mainly). Oh, and don't flame me for speaking in ignorance. I've been a Linux user for half a decade at least now, and I CAN say I see problems with it. I can also say, as a person who is programmer, that some of the things that Cantrill pointed out are actually evil. Note, however, that I don't claim Solaris, or any other OS is better. Every UNIX is utterly fucked in some respect. I just know Linux's flaws the best. By the way, I've been trying to get Amiga emulation working for a while. It basically works at this point, but the *UAEs are a misery on UNIX systems. Without any kind of loader, you have to spend 10 minutes editing the config every time you want to play a game. But if you're in any way interested in the history you lived through, check out youtube.com/watch?v=Tv6aJRGpz_A
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  Those issues seem so trivial with the benefit of hindsight and a memory of what it was like to deploy an application to multiple UNIX variants. Having one standard (we can call that standard "it ain't quite POSIX, but it runs great on Linux") is so superior to the mine field that was all of the UNIXen in 199x, that I don't even register it as a problem. Shoot, until you've had to use autotools or custom build a makefile for a half dozen different C compilers, kernels, libc, and so on, you don't know from POSIX "standards" pain. But now my beard is showing and I'm ranting. My point is this: it took something from completely outside of the commercial UNIX ecosystem, so far out in left field that none of the UNIX bosses (or Microsoft) saw it as a threat until it was far too late...and it took something that was good, really good in at least some regards, that it would have passionate fans even very early in. Linux did that. And, compared to everything else (pretty much everything else that's ever existed, IMHO), it's great. And, I'm on board the retro computing bandwagon. I have a real live Commodore 64 and an Atari 130xe. I'd like to one day find an Amiga 1200 in good shape, but because I live in an RV and travel fulltime, I don't have a lot of room to spare. But I do like to tinker and reminisce.
  - qwertyuiop924 11y ago
    You know, I think you're right. You have a good point. Thanks. And I'd love to have some real retro computers, but I've got no money, and most of the really interesting ones are from the UK. Ah well...
  - peatmoss 11y ago
    > until you've had to use autotools or custom build a makefile for a half dozen different C compilers, kernels, libc, and so on, you don't know from POSIX "standards" pain. Truer words have ne'er been spoken. My first big boy job involved building and maintaining a large open source stack on top of AIX. These days I occasionally experience hiccups related to OpenBSD not being Linux. Problems aren't even in the same league. That said, the thrill of getting stuff to work on AIX was certainly greater (and purchased with more human suffering).
    - 11y ago
Annatar 11y ago
> Great is a relative term. But, can you name an OS, especially a UNIX, that is better in the general case? By "general case", I mean, good for just about anything, even if there's something better for some niche or role. Also, take into account the world we live in: More computing happens on servers and phones than on desktops and laptops; and judge the OS based on how it's doing in those roles. Okay then, SmartOS. Why is an exercise left for the reader, because it would just take too much and too long to list and explain all the things it does better, faster and cheaper than Linux in server space; that's material rife for an entire book. > can you honestly say you enjoyed working on it more than Linux? Enjoyed it?!? Love it, I love working with Solaris 10 and SmartOS! It's such a joy not having a broken OS which actually does what it is supposed to do (run fast, be efficient, protect my data, is designed to be correct). When I am forced to work with Linux (which I am, at work, 100% of the time, and I hate it), it feels like I am on an operating system from the past century: ext3 / ext4 (no XFS for us yet, and even that is ancient compared to ZFS!), memory overcommit, data corruption, no backward compatibility, navigating the minefield of GNU libc and userland misfeatures and "enhancements". It's horrible. I hate it. > The userspace on Solaris was always drastically worse than Linux, Are you kidding me? System V is great, it's grep -R and tar -z that I hate, because it only works on GNU! Horrid!!! > But, Linux brought us a UNIX we could realistically use anywhere, and at a price anyone could afford. You do realize that if you take an illumos derived OS like SmartOS and Linux, and run the same workload on the same cheap intel hardware, SmartOS is usually going to be faster, and if you are virtualizing, more efficient too, because it uses zones, right? Right? It's like this: when I run SmartOS, it's like I'm gliding around in an ultramodern, powerful, economical mazda6 diesel (the 175 HP / 6 speed Euro sportwagon version); I slam the gas pedal and I'm doing 220 km/h without even feeling it and look, I'm in Salzburg already! When I'm on Linux, I'm in that idiotic Prius abomination again: not only do I not have any power, but I end up using more fuel too, even though it's a hybrid, and I'm on I-80 somewhere in Iowa. That's how I'd compare SmartOS to Linux.
- luckydude 11y ago
  That was an awesome rant. You must work with Brian. Edit: Bryan Cantrill, spelled it wrong.

qwertyuiop924 11y ago

Fair 'nuff. And no, I haven't used commercial UNIXes all that much, but I have experienced plenty of Linux's warts. I do agree with a lot of those points, but containers on Linux just aren't there, systemd is a mess that's going to get pushed in no matter what we say, and there are plenty of issues to be had, although the ladder is true of any UNIX. If you want to know what the rest of the issues are, just start googling. And while you're at it, listen to some of Bryan Cantrill's talks. They are biased (obviously), but they're entertaining, and they do point out some things that I think are real problems (posix conformance (MADV_DONTNEED), and epoll semantics, mainly). Oh, and don't flame me for speaking in ignorance. I've been a Linux user for half a decade at least now, and I CAN say I see problems with it. I can also say, as a person who is programmer, that some of the things that Cantrill pointed out are actually evil. Note, however, that I don't claim Solaris, or any other OS is better. Every UNIX is utterly fucked in some respect. I just know Linux's flaws the best. By the way, I've been trying to get Amiga emulation working for a while. It basically works at this point, but the *UAEs are a misery on UNIX systems. Without any kind of loader, you have to spend 10 minutes editing the config every time you want to play a game. But if you're in any way interested in the history you lived through, check out youtube.com/watch?v=Tv6aJRGpz_A

SwellJoe 11y ago
Those issues seem so trivial with the benefit of hindsight and a memory of what it was like to deploy an application to multiple UNIX variants. Having one standard (we can call that standard "it ain't quite POSIX, but it runs great on Linux") is so superior to the mine field that was all of the UNIXen in 199x, that I don't even register it as a problem. Shoot, until you've had to use autotools or custom build a makefile for a half dozen different C compilers, kernels, libc, and so on, you don't know from POSIX "standards" pain. But now my beard is showing and I'm ranting. My point is this: it took something from completely outside of the commercial UNIX ecosystem, so far out in left field that none of the UNIX bosses (or Microsoft) saw it as a threat until it was far too late...and it took something that was good, really good in at least some regards, that it would have passionate fans even very early in. Linux did that. And, compared to everything else (pretty much everything else that's ever existed, IMHO), it's great. And, I'm on board the retro computing bandwagon. I have a real live Commodore 64 and an Atari 130xe. I'd like to one day find an Amiga 1200 in good shape, but because I live in an RV and travel fulltime, I don't have a lot of room to spare. But I do like to tinker and reminisce.
- qwertyuiop924 11y ago
  You know, I think you're right. You have a good point. Thanks. And I'd love to have some real retro computers, but I've got no money, and most of the really interesting ones are from the UK. Ah well...
- peatmoss 11y ago
  > until you've had to use autotools or custom build a makefile for a half dozen different C compilers, kernels, libc, and so on, you don't know from POSIX "standards" pain. Truer words have ne'er been spoken. My first big boy job involved building and maintaining a large open source stack on top of AIX. These days I occasionally experience hiccups related to OpenBSD not being Linux. Problems aren't even in the same league. That said, the thrill of getting stuff to work on AIX was certainly greater (and purchased with more human suffering).
  - 11y ago

Annatar 11y ago

> Great is a relative term. But, can you name an OS, especially a UNIX, that is better in the general case? By "general case", I mean, good for just about anything, even if there's something better for some niche or role. Also, take into account the world we live in: More computing happens on servers and phones than on desktops and laptops; and judge the OS based on how it's doing in those roles. Okay then, SmartOS. Why is an exercise left for the reader, because it would just take too much and too long to list and explain all the things it does better, faster and cheaper than Linux in server space; that's material rife for an entire book. > can you honestly say you enjoyed working on it more than Linux? Enjoyed it?!? Love it, I love working with Solaris 10 and SmartOS! It's such a joy not having a broken OS which actually does what it is supposed to do (run fast, be efficient, protect my data, is designed to be correct). When I am forced to work with Linux (which I am, at work, 100% of the time, and I hate it), it feels like I am on an operating system from the past century: ext3 / ext4 (no XFS for us yet, and even that is ancient compared to ZFS!), memory overcommit, data corruption, no backward compatibility, navigating the minefield of GNU libc and userland misfeatures and "enhancements". It's horrible. I hate it. > The userspace on Solaris was always drastically worse than Linux, Are you kidding me? System V is great, it's grep -R and tar -z that I hate, because it only works on GNU! Horrid!!! > But, Linux brought us a UNIX we could realistically use anywhere, and at a price anyone could afford. You do realize that if you take an illumos derived OS like SmartOS and Linux, and run the same workload on the same cheap intel hardware, SmartOS is usually going to be faster, and if you are virtualizing, more efficient too, because it uses zones, right? Right? It's like this: when I run SmartOS, it's like I'm gliding around in an ultramodern, powerful, economical mazda6 diesel (the 175 HP / 6 speed Euro sportwagon version); I slam the gas pedal and I'm doing 220 km/h without even feeling it and look, I'm in Salzburg already! When I'm on Linux, I'm in that idiotic Prius abomination again: not only do I not have any power, but I end up using more fuel too, even though it's a hybrid, and I'm on I-80 somewhere in Iowa. That's how I'd compare SmartOS to Linux.

luckydude 11y ago
That was an awesome rant. You must work with Brian. Edit: Bryan Cantrill, spelled it wrong.