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I was using Signal, too. One day it phoned home, got some new instructions from its creators, refused to work any longer, and demanded that I download an upgrad

I was using Signal, too. One day it phoned home, got some new instructions from its creators, refused to work any longer, and demanded that I download an upgrade. I was not excited about this, since upgrades generally break things, but after a few days of grumbling I knuckled under. Sure enough, the upgrade is broken: it insists that I have to upgrade Google Play Services, which I can't do, because I deleted it along with the rest of the Google code I don't want to use. I can't use Signal anymore, by Open Whispersystems' choice, which means I can't easily communicate with a fair number of my friends anymore, and that's apparently just the way it is. Open Whispersystems demands that I let Google have a level of access to my phone I don't want them to have, or they won't let me use Signal. Their proprietary Signal software is the only way to use the Signal service, so I can't just switch to an app whose privacy characteristics might be a better fit for my needs, as no other apps exist. Am I going to convince everyone I want to communicate with that they should stop using Signal and start using something else? No, I am not, because why would they do that? They're all happily using Signal now, and I'm the odd one out, so I lose. Sure feels a lot like lock-in; I have no good choices here.

throwaway2048 11y ago
Wisper's arguement here is basicly: you don't matter, and we arn't going to do anything to help you. And due to their walled garden, you can't do anything to help yourself either. so much for "open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols" Unless you mean control for Google.
- marssaxman 11y ago
  I see where you're coming from but I think you're being too harsh. I don't know Moxie personally, but he's been out there fighting the good fight since the '90s - I have a vague and possibly erroneous memory of having encountered him on the old cypherpunks list, back during the dawn of time. While I have had a frustrating experience with Signal, I have nothing but respect for Moxie's skill and his commitment to secure, private communication. Engineering is hard, everything is a tradeoff; I'm certain that nobody involved with Signal has any intention whatsoever of trying to sell us out to Google. They're undoubtedly looking at a complicated problem and trying to do a good job with it. It just happens that their particular choices aren't working for me.
- kijiki 11y ago
  Signal is open source, so you can just fork it to remove the dependency on GCM. In fact, someone already has, so you can just use it: https://fdroid.eutopia.cz/ https://fdroid.eutopia.cz/
  - ymse 11y ago
    Open Whisper Systems have asked LibreSignal to stop using their servers and may decide to shut it out. See https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37 https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37 and discussion upthread.
dlmetcalf 11y ago
I guess at the end of the day, that exactly my concern too. Signal is awesome, which is why we want to use it, but then suddenly the user finds they're now inextricably tied to Google or Facebook collecting their metadata - while we know Google themselves have been compromised (technically & legally) and are forced to hand that data over. Notably, to an NSA that has lied to Congress about it's operations, without consequence, and hence is now beyond oversight and reach of regulators too. Also that the iOS code, which appeared to be free & open, is actually not, because other projects are denied permission to use in a way that's compatible with iOS's App Store). Ironically because the libraries are under GPL. Hey, blame Apple I know, or ourselves for not reading all Apple's T&Cs before promoting Signal, but it's disappointing none-the-less (while also still being OWS's right). From all their history, the OWS guys seem to really want and be trying to do the right things, within the constraints and trade-offs available to them. The answers aren't trivial, but something about where it's all ended up leaves a very uncomfortable feeling.

throwaway2048 11y ago

Wisper's arguement here is basicly: you don't matter, and we arn't going to do anything to help you. And due to their walled garden, you can't do anything to help yourself either. so much for "open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols" Unless you mean control for Google.

marssaxman 11y ago
I see where you're coming from but I think you're being too harsh. I don't know Moxie personally, but he's been out there fighting the good fight since the '90s - I have a vague and possibly erroneous memory of having encountered him on the old cypherpunks list, back during the dawn of time. While I have had a frustrating experience with Signal, I have nothing but respect for Moxie's skill and his commitment to secure, private communication. Engineering is hard, everything is a tradeoff; I'm certain that nobody involved with Signal has any intention whatsoever of trying to sell us out to Google. They're undoubtedly looking at a complicated problem and trying to do a good job with it. It just happens that their particular choices aren't working for me.
kijiki 11y ago
Signal is open source, so you can just fork it to remove the dependency on GCM. In fact, someone already has, so you can just use it: https://fdroid.eutopia.cz/ https://fdroid.eutopia.cz/
- ymse 11y ago
  Open Whisper Systems have asked LibreSignal to stop using their servers and may decide to shut it out. See https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37 https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37 and discussion upthread.

dlmetcalf 11y ago

I guess at the end of the day, that exactly my concern too. Signal is awesome, which is why we want to use it, but then suddenly the user finds they're now inextricably tied to Google or Facebook collecting their metadata - while we know Google themselves have been compromised (technically & legally) and are forced to hand that data over. Notably, to an NSA that has lied to Congress about it's operations, without consequence, and hence is now beyond oversight and reach of regulators too. Also that the iOS code, which appeared to be free & open, is actually not, because other projects are denied permission to use in a way that's compatible with iOS's App Store). Ironically because the libraries are under GPL. Hey, blame Apple I know, or ourselves for not reading all Apple's T&Cs before promoting Signal, but it's disappointing none-the-less (while also still being OWS's right). From all their history, the OWS guys seem to really want and be trying to do the right things, within the constraints and trade-offs available to them. The answers aren't trivial, but something about where it's all ended up leaves a very uncomfortable feeling.