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My original article was 6 pages long, this is an abridged version. So I was not able to convey all the concepts I would have liked to as clearly as possible. Th

My original article was 6 pages long, this is an abridged version. So I was not able to convey all the concepts I would have liked to as clearly as possible. That said, let me throw myself into the fray. It's not about "being lazy". I know people who come in by 7:30 and leave by 9pm. They are not lazy. They work really hard. But they will never be CEO of the company. It's about challenging yourself. Becoming better. Training. When you can do stuff good, then you have to find stuff you can't do as well that is even harder. If I am a Django programmer, after 6 months the challenge in Django is minimal. I can work 10 hours a day on Django and it's not really a challenge anymore. So it's not about laziness really. It's about not being complacent in your current abilities.

wheels 17y ago
I see what you're getting at, but don't believe that it really has much to do with intelligence. It doesn't help that the analogy in this case is particularly bad. The guy who's a stand-in for someone pushing himself just went through the same training that everyone else from his country did. I believe ambitious people find their way to things that challenge their abilities. I also don't believe that there's a strong correlation between intelligence and ambition. It's that missing positive correlation that you seem to be getting at, and most people tend to assume exists, but by recasting it as a negative correlation it offends my sensibilities. ;-)
- maxklein 17y ago
  I wouldn't say that Ofer was pushing himself. He was superior to the guy with the knife, by virtue of his past training. It's like a brilliant lisp coder vs a mediocre C++ programmer. The C++ programmer will be much faster than the lisp programmer in achieving some task using C++, simply because he has past training. So basically, the effort put in over time will keep you ahead of any competition, unless a person of superior inherent ability also decides to put in effort in the same area you are in. Will an ambitious person always find something to challenge their abilities? I know many people who are ambitious - they talk about money all the time. But if you observe their actions, they are basically doing nothing, or doing something unimportant and easy. I'm not convinced there is a correlation between ambition and an active search for things that are difficult to do. I'm sure there is such a subset of people, but the proportion compared to those who are content with not challenging themselves, I believe, is low. But I don't really know, that's just a guess.
  - infinite8s 17y ago
    Since when does talking about money all the time imply ambition? Usually the people who spend the most time talking about something are the least likely to go out and do something toward it.
euroclydon 17y ago
Wouldn't being really good at Django mean I could get a lot of stuff done in ten hours of Django development? If you hired an employee at your company, wouldn't you want them to get a bunch of work done, rather than learning a new technology? Doesn't a founder need to do a lot of work? I'm just asking. I'm the opposite. Once I learn how to do something well, I'm bored, so just when I'm becoming productive, I'm off to the next challenge. However, I've really benefited from knowledge of a whide range of technology. Sometimes, while co-workers spend weeks doing something the only way they know, I use different technology to get the same thing done in a couple of days.
- evanrmurphy 17y ago
  I identify with this! but things are still early for me. Can't resist climbing on all these steep learning curves, but often that means finishing later than those who approach the same problem using familiar tools. I'm hoping that with time having taken on all these challenges will translate into better output - sounds like in your case it has. I had a great piano teacher who was genius with harmony. He approached jazz standards in this split way, simultaneously obsessive about grasping higher abstractions and about digging into the piano on a low level. (I guess grokking in retrospect.) One thing I left with was the idea that speed and excellence in something come from fluency with it, but getting fluent can take a long time, and you'll be slow and unfinished before you're close.
jayair 17y ago
I think the relationship between IQ and effort is due to two factors upbringing and our understanding of the self. The upbringing factor is easy to see; a smarter child doesn't work as hard growing up since he isn't challenged enough in school. You went into this in your article. The understanding of the self however is a little more tricky. The more we understand what makes us happy on the inside, the more the value of the world on the outside decreases. You mentioned becoming a CEO; I think a person with a high IQ who has a good understanding of him/herself has a pretty good idea what he/her wants. And there is a very little chance that the "CEO" position can offer all or most of that. Jobs and positions in the real world rarely translate perfectly to what we want in our minds. Also, smarter people do a better job of synthesizing their future in their minds; they tend to look farther into the future. So essentially they are looking at the future wondering, why do I have to work harder to get to a position that offers very little of what I want. You can argue that the CEO position is really quite valuable and that the smarter person should want it. But a side effect of their "easier" upbringing also means that they don't have the desire to work hard for things. I think the biggest part of working hard is to trick your brain into thinking you want the outcome that the hard work is going to bring.
lucifer 17y ago
"It's about challenging yourself. Becoming better. Training. When you can do stuff good, then you have to find stuff you can't do as well that is even harder." Good read and solid advice. But the title raised the expectation that the article would delve into how the thought process (and potential lower social/emotional intelligence) of high IQ individuals can be a detriment to starting and developing a business.
izendejas 17y ago
Thanks for sharing! I think it's generally a good message. I think there's something to be said about humility as well. I've seen very many intelligent people who are arrogant and will put down great ideas. In fact, I've some very intelligent people put down my ideas and then later implement them as their own. But ultimately, you're right. It's about not being complacent. And let's be clear. Not everyone wants to be the CEO of a company. Maybe you want to be the best researcher in field X. I've seen people who are great at X and belittle other work that could potentially teach them something. One can see this a lot in academia, for example. It's ridiculous.

wheels 17y ago

I see what you're getting at, but don't believe that it really has much to do with intelligence. It doesn't help that the analogy in this case is particularly bad. The guy who's a stand-in for someone pushing himself just went through the same training that everyone else from his country did. I believe ambitious people find their way to things that challenge their abilities. I also don't believe that there's a strong correlation between intelligence and ambition. It's that missing positive correlation that you seem to be getting at, and most people tend to assume exists, but by recasting it as a negative correlation it offends my sensibilities. ;-)

maxklein 17y ago
I wouldn't say that Ofer was pushing himself. He was superior to the guy with the knife, by virtue of his past training. It's like a brilliant lisp coder vs a mediocre C++ programmer. The C++ programmer will be much faster than the lisp programmer in achieving some task using C++, simply because he has past training. So basically, the effort put in over time will keep you ahead of any competition, unless a person of superior inherent ability also decides to put in effort in the same area you are in. Will an ambitious person always find something to challenge their abilities? I know many people who are ambitious - they talk about money all the time. But if you observe their actions, they are basically doing nothing, or doing something unimportant and easy. I'm not convinced there is a correlation between ambition and an active search for things that are difficult to do. I'm sure there is such a subset of people, but the proportion compared to those who are content with not challenging themselves, I believe, is low. But I don't really know, that's just a guess.
- infinite8s 17y ago
  Since when does talking about money all the time imply ambition? Usually the people who spend the most time talking about something are the least likely to go out and do something toward it.

euroclydon 17y ago

Wouldn't being really good at Django mean I could get a lot of stuff done in ten hours of Django development? If you hired an employee at your company, wouldn't you want them to get a bunch of work done, rather than learning a new technology? Doesn't a founder need to do a lot of work? I'm just asking. I'm the opposite. Once I learn how to do something well, I'm bored, so just when I'm becoming productive, I'm off to the next challenge. However, I've really benefited from knowledge of a whide range of technology. Sometimes, while co-workers spend weeks doing something the only way they know, I use different technology to get the same thing done in a couple of days.

evanrmurphy 17y ago
I identify with this! but things are still early for me. Can't resist climbing on all these steep learning curves, but often that means finishing later than those who approach the same problem using familiar tools. I'm hoping that with time having taken on all these challenges will translate into better output - sounds like in your case it has. I had a great piano teacher who was genius with harmony. He approached jazz standards in this split way, simultaneously obsessive about grasping higher abstractions and about digging into the piano on a low level. (I guess grokking in retrospect.) One thing I left with was the idea that speed and excellence in something come from fluency with it, but getting fluent can take a long time, and you'll be slow and unfinished before you're close.

jayair 17y ago

I think the relationship between IQ and effort is due to two factors upbringing and our understanding of the self. The upbringing factor is easy to see; a smarter child doesn't work as hard growing up since he isn't challenged enough in school. You went into this in your article. The understanding of the self however is a little more tricky. The more we understand what makes us happy on the inside, the more the value of the world on the outside decreases. You mentioned becoming a CEO; I think a person with a high IQ who has a good understanding of him/herself has a pretty good idea what he/her wants. And there is a very little chance that the "CEO" position can offer all or most of that. Jobs and positions in the real world rarely translate perfectly to what we want in our minds. Also, smarter people do a better job of synthesizing their future in their minds; they tend to look farther into the future. So essentially they are looking at the future wondering, why do I have to work harder to get to a position that offers very little of what I want. You can argue that the CEO position is really quite valuable and that the smarter person should want it. But a side effect of their "easier" upbringing also means that they don't have the desire to work hard for things. I think the biggest part of working hard is to trick your brain into thinking you want the outcome that the hard work is going to bring.

lucifer 17y ago

"It's about challenging yourself. Becoming better. Training. When you can do stuff good, then you have to find stuff you can't do as well that is even harder." Good read and solid advice. But the title raised the expectation that the article would delve into how the thought process (and potential lower social/emotional intelligence) of high IQ individuals can be a detriment to starting and developing a business.

izendejas 17y ago

Thanks for sharing! I think it's generally a good message. I think there's something to be said about humility as well. I've seen very many intelligent people who are arrogant and will put down great ideas. In fact, I've some very intelligent people put down my ideas and then later implement them as their own. But ultimately, you're right. It's about not being complacent. And let's be clear. Not everyone wants to be the CEO of a company. Maybe you want to be the best researcher in field X. I've seen people who are great at X and belittle other work that could potentially teach them something. One can see this a lot in academia, for example. It's ridiculous.