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Once again, Isn't that just another way of saying that people do not like being confronted with the fact that their positions are not actually rational at all,

Once again, Isn't that just another way of saying that people do not like being confronted with the fact that their positions are not actually rational at all, rather than that you are "trolling" someone by so confronting them? I agree that the linked thread is a good example of exactly this phenomenon, and I think it's actually a far more common thing here than people would like to admit.

kazinator 10y ago
But that confrontation comprises a good bulk of what is actually called trolling. There is the aspect that the confrontation is not always in good faith. The troll knows that those people don't like being confronted, and knows that it is not productive to do so. It's done only for the amusement: because those people don't like it.
- etherael 10y ago
  So really you're saying it reduces to the intent of the interrogator? If you interrogate someone for their irrational beliefs because you are genuinely curious if they are in fact as irrational as they appear, or you're missing something important, this is not trolling, but if you're well aware that they are definitely irrational, and you're familiar with all of the reasons that people come to believe these kinds of things, then this is?
  - kazinator 10y ago
    No; we can't define trolling by referring to intent. It's a behavior. The trolling intent does lead to a persistent, repetitive, long-term behavior: pushing the same buttons to obtain the same response. There may be an agenda behind it: to keep that topic current and frequent in that forum, so that any newcomer to the forum sees mostly that discussion and nothing else. The troll says: you are irrational in your beliefs, and I will keep stirring that up month after month, so that the forum is replete with exposure of this fact. There may be some agenda behind it. Sometimes it is explicit or can be inferred (like promoting something). Sometimes it remains hidden. If someone has a trolling intent, but fizzles away after one round, then we can't externally tell whether that was a would-be troll or someone genuinely curious. The behavior has to define it.
    - etherael 10y ago
      > The troll says: you are irrational in your beliefs, and I will keep stirring that up month after month, so that the forum is replete with exposure of this fact. This sounds a lot like the behaviour of someone who is genuinely offended by a certain kind of irrationality which is prevalent in a particular forum, they might not be refuting that irrationality and confronting the holders of it for their personal amusement, but rather a sense of believing that irrationality is terribly harmful and needs to be destroyed/exposed for what it is lest it gain prevalence and support and position to cause further harm. I view the state and political authority in exactly this light, support for this idea and institution is practically ubiquitous despite its terrible consequences, and when I say so, I am not trying to amuse myself in any way. It seems by some measure the above would be trolling, because largely, people really do not like being confronted with the facts on the subject.

kazinator 10y ago

But that confrontation comprises a good bulk of what is actually called trolling. There is the aspect that the confrontation is not always in good faith. The troll knows that those people don't like being confronted, and knows that it is not productive to do so. It's done only for the amusement: because those people don't like it.

etherael 10y ago
So really you're saying it reduces to the intent of the interrogator? If you interrogate someone for their irrational beliefs because you are genuinely curious if they are in fact as irrational as they appear, or you're missing something important, this is not trolling, but if you're well aware that they are definitely irrational, and you're familiar with all of the reasons that people come to believe these kinds of things, then this is?
- kazinator 10y ago
  No; we can't define trolling by referring to intent. It's a behavior. The trolling intent does lead to a persistent, repetitive, long-term behavior: pushing the same buttons to obtain the same response. There may be an agenda behind it: to keep that topic current and frequent in that forum, so that any newcomer to the forum sees mostly that discussion and nothing else. The troll says: you are irrational in your beliefs, and I will keep stirring that up month after month, so that the forum is replete with exposure of this fact. There may be some agenda behind it. Sometimes it is explicit or can be inferred (like promoting something). Sometimes it remains hidden. If someone has a trolling intent, but fizzles away after one round, then we can't externally tell whether that was a would-be troll or someone genuinely curious. The behavior has to define it.
  - etherael 10y ago
    > The troll says: you are irrational in your beliefs, and I will keep stirring that up month after month, so that the forum is replete with exposure of this fact. This sounds a lot like the behaviour of someone who is genuinely offended by a certain kind of irrationality which is prevalent in a particular forum, they might not be refuting that irrationality and confronting the holders of it for their personal amusement, but rather a sense of believing that irrationality is terribly harmful and needs to be destroyed/exposed for what it is lest it gain prevalence and support and position to cause further harm. I view the state and political authority in exactly this light, support for this idea and institution is practically ubiquitous despite its terrible consequences, and when I say so, I am not trying to amuse myself in any way. It seems by some measure the above would be trolling, because largely, people really do not like being confronted with the facts on the subject.