5 ms·

Well, I really don't feel like working at the moment so I'll bite! The article, of course, doesn't just give an opinion. It tells an historical story---partly

by arstin 10y ago

Well, I really don't feel like working at the moment so I'll bite! The article, of course, doesn't just give an opinion. It tells an historical story---partly from her own experience as a social justice activist---and makes an argument that a wrong turn was taken. You could well disagree with her conclusion, some premises, or think she left out key facts, but I think her grounds are a bit less flimsy than whatever biases she happened to inherit. FWIW, I didn't know who this person was, but I googled out of curiosity and she appears to identify as trans herself? (but, sure, this doesn't matter inside this dialectic since she could still have "cis privilege"). One of her recent criticisms seemed to be parents subjecting their children to sex reassignment surgery before they are old enough to give informed consent. And that the explanation for this---obviously, right?---involves the prominence of gender and sexuality in our cultural zeitgeist and as technologies for self-identification. She also points out that sex change is now being misleadingly presented as a solution to deeper problems that would really remain unaddressed. A Twitter-inflaming interview had some interesting remarks on a connection between sexuality and cultural decadence---which she has apparently written a book on the history of---but she seems to be actually well read and was working with a much more complex structure than bloggers picked up on ("decadence" is used as a technical term, the link isn't causal, a richer concept of self-identity is assumed, the objectification of bodies is placed in a more complex network, etc). But again, this is just my impression from procrastinating for a bit!

norea-armozel 10y ago
"One of her recent criticisms seemed to be parents subjecting their children to sex reassignment surgery before they are old enough to give informed consent." Problem is there's no one actually doing GRS on trans kids. Unless she's confusing the violent act of GRS for intersexed/ambiguous-genitalia kids which is a wholly separate issue. Because I don't know of a single case of a transgender teenager undergoing GRS or even plastic surgery for facial feminization or breast augmentation. "She also points out that sex change is now being misleadingly presented as a solution to deeper problems that would really remain unaddressed." She hasn't demonstrated that there's over diagnosis of adults or children with gender dysphoria. It's for her to actually show through evidence that there's such a trend that's beyond mere correlation. If she can't produce it then she's acting unethically by virtue of the fact that her claims will be sourced as an "expert opinion" by medical professionals who aren't willing to dig deeper. Also, her remarks regarding Chaz Bono shows she's definitely not trans in any capacity. The fact she tries to conflate her experiences with that of Chaz's is the typical nonsense that certain people do when trying to empathize with a stranger they scarcely know. It's easy to try to overlay your experiences from afar but if you honestly didn't live with that person through those experiences you can't make any assertion that you know or have the ability to know what they're thinking or if their thinking is incorrect. I can tell you that for years I thought what people told me about myself was accurate despite the fact the vast majority of these people (two being my parents) were more interested in projecting what they wanted me to be and not what I was or what I really needed to do to find out who I was in the first place. So, Paglia's comments in this regard insult me greatly since they're that of a nosy neighbor that should learn to never intrude in that of the affairs of neighbors who didn't ask for their opinion.
- golemotron 10y ago
  > It's easy to try to overlay your experiences from afar but if you honestly didn't live with that person through those experiences you can't make any assertion that you know or have the ability to know what they're thinking or if their thinking is incorrect. That's why I'm insulted by your characterization of Ms. Paglia. You haven't lived her experience. You don't know what it is like to be her, yet you consider yourself competent to judge based on your assumptions of her knowledge - and they are assumptions. You simply don't know. > So, Paglia's comments in this regard insult me greatly since they're that of a nosy neighbor that should learn to never intrude in that of the affairs of neighbors who didn't ask for their opinion. Indeed. She never asked for your opinion of her or your assumptions.
  - norea-armozel 10y ago
    "That's why I'm insulted by your characterization of Ms. Paglia. You haven't lived her experience. You don't know what it is like to be her, yet you consider yourself competent to judge based on your assumptions of her knowledge - and they are assumptions. You simply don't know." Is she a licensed therapist? If not, then she needs to kindly STFU about issues she has no expertise in. Dunning-Kruger is definitely in full effect with her when it comes to psychology. Especially since her expertise largely revolves around literature and art. Not psychology, not biology, not neurology: art. Think about that for a moment. An Art major is telling trans people they're "deluded" when she doesn't even have the chops to deal with the basics of developmental psychology. So why should anyone that's trans listen to her, exactly? "She never asked for your opinion of her or your assumptions." And I didn't ask for her bigoted opinions to be treated as factual currency for how to mistreat trans people. Her words can affect and harm trans people because she's touted as an "expert" where as my words are that of a stranger, a nobody, a nada, thus they're not given the same weight or affect on policy. She knows this and that's why she says the things she says. Both to get seen in print and to possibly gain the favor of the powers that be that are sympathetic to her views.
metaphorm 10y ago
> she appears to identify as trans herself no, she doesn't. she's a cis-gendered lesbian. she was born female and still identifies as female nor has she ever done otherwise as far as I know. I'm surprised its your first time hearing about Camille Paglia though. She's moderately famous (in my circles anyway). Has been stirring the pot in the academia/inteligentisa scene for decades now. She's a very iconoclastic and contrarian thinker and has made enemies on both the left and the right. Her ideas are fairly deep and well thought out though and a lot of the controversy she finds herself in is basically the media trolling their audience with inflammatory out-of-context quotations. Not to say Paglia isn't sometimes deliberately inflammatory. She can light it up with the best of them.
- malandrew 10y ago
  Not saying you're wrong, but please substantiate your statements with citations/facts.

by arstin 10y ago

norea-armozel 10y ago

"One of her recent criticisms seemed to be parents subjecting their children to sex reassignment surgery before they are old enough to give informed consent." Problem is there's no one actually doing GRS on trans kids. Unless she's confusing the violent act of GRS for intersexed/ambiguous-genitalia kids which is a wholly separate issue. Because I don't know of a single case of a transgender teenager undergoing GRS or even plastic surgery for facial feminization or breast augmentation. "She also points out that sex change is now being misleadingly presented as a solution to deeper problems that would really remain unaddressed." She hasn't demonstrated that there's over diagnosis of adults or children with gender dysphoria. It's for her to actually show through evidence that there's such a trend that's beyond mere correlation. If she can't produce it then she's acting unethically by virtue of the fact that her claims will be sourced as an "expert opinion" by medical professionals who aren't willing to dig deeper. Also, her remarks regarding Chaz Bono shows she's definitely not trans in any capacity. The fact she tries to conflate her experiences with that of Chaz's is the typical nonsense that certain people do when trying to empathize with a stranger they scarcely know. It's easy to try to overlay your experiences from afar but if you honestly didn't live with that person through those experiences you can't make any assertion that you know or have the ability to know what they're thinking or if their thinking is incorrect. I can tell you that for years I thought what people told me about myself was accurate despite the fact the vast majority of these people (two being my parents) were more interested in projecting what they wanted me to be and not what I was or what I really needed to do to find out who I was in the first place. So, Paglia's comments in this regard insult me greatly since they're that of a nosy neighbor that should learn to never intrude in that of the affairs of neighbors who didn't ask for their opinion.

golemotron 10y ago
> It's easy to try to overlay your experiences from afar but if you honestly didn't live with that person through those experiences you can't make any assertion that you know or have the ability to know what they're thinking or if their thinking is incorrect. That's why I'm insulted by your characterization of Ms. Paglia. You haven't lived her experience. You don't know what it is like to be her, yet you consider yourself competent to judge based on your assumptions of her knowledge - and they are assumptions. You simply don't know. > So, Paglia's comments in this regard insult me greatly since they're that of a nosy neighbor that should learn to never intrude in that of the affairs of neighbors who didn't ask for their opinion. Indeed. She never asked for your opinion of her or your assumptions.
- norea-armozel 10y ago
  "That's why I'm insulted by your characterization of Ms. Paglia. You haven't lived her experience. You don't know what it is like to be her, yet you consider yourself competent to judge based on your assumptions of her knowledge - and they are assumptions. You simply don't know." Is she a licensed therapist? If not, then she needs to kindly STFU about issues she has no expertise in. Dunning-Kruger is definitely in full effect with her when it comes to psychology. Especially since her expertise largely revolves around literature and art. Not psychology, not biology, not neurology: art. Think about that for a moment. An Art major is telling trans people they're "deluded" when she doesn't even have the chops to deal with the basics of developmental psychology. So why should anyone that's trans listen to her, exactly? "She never asked for your opinion of her or your assumptions." And I didn't ask for her bigoted opinions to be treated as factual currency for how to mistreat trans people. Her words can affect and harm trans people because she's touted as an "expert" where as my words are that of a stranger, a nobody, a nada, thus they're not given the same weight or affect on policy. She knows this and that's why she says the things she says. Both to get seen in print and to possibly gain the favor of the powers that be that are sympathetic to her views.

metaphorm 10y ago

> she appears to identify as trans herself no, she doesn't. she's a cis-gendered lesbian. she was born female and still identifies as female nor has she ever done otherwise as far as I know. I'm surprised its your first time hearing about Camille Paglia though. She's moderately famous (in my circles anyway). Has been stirring the pot in the academia/inteligentisa scene for decades now. She's a very iconoclastic and contrarian thinker and has made enemies on both the left and the right. Her ideas are fairly deep and well thought out though and a lot of the controversy she finds herself in is basically the media trolling their audience with inflammatory out-of-context quotations. Not to say Paglia isn't sometimes deliberately inflammatory. She can light it up with the best of them.

malandrew 10y ago
Not saying you're wrong, but please substantiate your statements with citations/facts.