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California Braces for Unending Drought
- tristanj 10y agoThe oddest thing is that engineers came up with a solution to this in the 1960s. Some smart people realized that there is an enormous excess of precipitation in Alaska and the Pacific Northwest, and this most of this freshwater flows into the Pacific and Arctic oceans unused. The flow of freshwater runoff in Alaska alone is more than half of the entire runoff of the continental United States. Engineers realized that with a very long aqueduct, they could pump this unused water thousands of miles to the parched Southwest United States. They came up with a viable plan to make this happen. At the cost of $100 billion (the same price as the US interstate system), the aqueduct could pump 10 times the flow of the Colorado river, more than enough to completely resolve the region's water problems. The aqueduct would generate billions per year in hydroelectric power, an even more in added economic value. Like the Hoover dam, it would pay for itself within 30 years. Yet, due to objections from environmentalists, the project ended up going nowhere and few people today have even heard of the project. If you're interested, there's more on this topic on the Wiki page [1], as well as two videos made in the 1960s about the benefits of NAWAPA. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MibzpJ54do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MibzpJ54do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0dsc-341O8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0dsc-341O8
- sterl 10y agoTrump has stated he intends to bring this plan back... (just sayin' :) )
- tristanj 10y agoDid he really? Trump says a lot of things, it sure is hard to keep track. It's also hard to tell if he's serious about it. If he really did say this, then I'm very impressed he knows about it.
- sterl 10y agoHe threw darts at a wall and got lucky from my perspective. Basically how he's run his whole campaign.
- nathantotten 10y agoSource?
- sterl 10y agoSorry I can't find it immediately but he was asked about it when Shatner was pushing this and he thought it was a great idea. I think it fits in with his immediate solution to everything angle that's completely nuts when you stop to think about it.
- stephenr 10y agoThe plan is about as feasible as "I will make Apple produce all their products in America", so it's not surprising.
- sterl 10y agoAgreed :)
- mcv 10y agoIt certainly sounds right up his alley. Grandiose idea, and fuck the consequences.
- e40 10y agoI lived through the 70's drought in CA and have never heard of this. Very interesting.
- tristanj 10y agoI'm glad you found it interesting :). If you are still interested in reading more, Michelle Nijhuis wrote a longform article about the project last year [1]. In the article she visits the Parsons office and interviews several long-time proponents. It is a bit long though (10 pages), but provides a great background on the (failed) project. [1] https://www.buzzfeed.com/nijhuis/pipe-dreams-the-forgotten-project-that-could-have-saved-amer https://www.buzzfeed.com/nijhuis/pipe-dreams-the-forgotten-p...
- stephenr 10y ago> Yet, due to objections from environmentalists Have you read the environmental impact - just the summary on the wikipedia article is fucking horrific. > The engineering of the project and the creation of a large number of new reservoirs — many of them in designated wilderness areas — would have destroyed vast areas of wildlife habitat in Canada and the American West and would have required the relocation of hundreds of thousands of people — including the entire city of Prince George, British Columbia.[1] A number of federally designated Wild and Scenic Rivers in Idaho and Montana would be submerged under reservoirs, including the Salmon, Lochsa, Clearwater, Yellowstone and Big Hole.[1] The amount of electricity required to pump the water over the Rockies would require the construction of as many as six nuclear power plants.[1] Significant negative consequences were also predicted for Pacific salmon runs in the many Alaskan and Canadian rivers that would be dammed and diverted, reducing their flows. Luna Leopold, a conservationist and professor of hydrology at the University of California, Berkeley said of NAWAPA, "The environmental damage that would be caused by that damned thing can't even be described. It would cause as much harm as all of the dam-building we have done in a hundred years." The first time I visited California, it was for a project for one of the native american casinos in the Temecula area. We flew into LAX met up with our colleagues (from other countries), rented a big suv thing and then drove to the casino. The trip down was basically "wow this is a big city" followed by "holy shit there is nothing here but desert". Then we arrived in Temecula. A small city, in the middle of the fucking desert, with perfectly manicured, perfectly green lawn along the side of HIGHWAYS. In most of the world, if an environment is too inhospitable for people, they either change their way of life (e.g.: people living underground in Coober Pedy; people embracing alternative types of gardens in dry/arid locations) or they accept that it doesn't suit them, and live somewhere else. In America: no. fuck that. It doesn't matter that 10 square feet of lawn will require more rainfall than this entire suburb will get in a year. I want my fucking lawn, so let's make it happen!
- kibwen 10y ago> Yet, due to objections from environmentalists, the > project ended up going nowhere Or, say, objections from the entire city of Prince George, BC (population: 80,000), along with the tens to hundreds of thousands of other people who would need to be relocated in order to flood a 500-mile long stretch of Canada for the benefit of Californians.
- whyenot 10y agoYou dismiss the environmental concerns with little more than a handwave, but they were substantial. The plan would have re-routed entire river systems, including economically important salmon runs, created a 500 mile long artificial lake in addition to other smaller reservoirs, would have required the relocation of "hundreds of thousands" of people, and would have required the creation of six nuclear power plants, just to power the pumps[1]. It was a grandiose, unworkable and IMO profoundly stupid idea. About at the same level as the plan to fill in the entire SF Bay south of Palo Alto that emerged around the same time. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Water_and_Power...
- tristanj 10y agoAs I posted elsewhere [1], I have no intention of debating with you or other posters here about the merits of the project. I'm simply letting people know the project exists, and is feasible from an engineering standpoint. If someone finds my comment intellectually gratifying, then I consider it a success. Something worth mentioning though is that right now China is building its own version of the NAWAPA called the South-to-North Water Diversion Project (Nánshuǐ Běidiào Gōngchéng) [2]. This would divert water from the wet regions in the south to the dry regions in the north. They've built the largest dams in the world and hundreds of miles of aqueduct to make this happen. They've also relocated hundreds of thousands people too. In my opinion, this is one of the largest engineering projects on the planet. NAWPA is very similar to the Chinese project, except on a larger scale. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11665546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11665546 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South%E2%80%93North_Water_Transfer_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South%E2%80%93North_Water_Tran...
- abalone 10y ago> They came up with a viable plan to make this happen. That is a curiously positive take on it. The wikipedia page you cite notes numerous extraordinary consequences to this plan that call into question its viability, to put it mildly. They include widespread destruction to wilderness areas, the relocation of >100K people, and six nuclear power plants worth of electricity to pump water over the Rockies. It has not been seriously considered since the 1970s awakening to environmental destruction of large scale dam building.
- beambot 10y agoHow about re-purposing old (underutilized?) oil pipelines from PacNorthWest...? Seems more plausible to change out the working fluids on an existing pipeline than building an aqueduct...?
- SilasX 10y agoWell even if the environmental concerns were invalid and their alarmists appeased, it still doesnt seem like a good idea, when the problem can be solved simply by properly aligning incentives so that people don't privately benefit from overusing water, and aren't stuck in "use it or lose it"-type situations where they can blow $100 worth of water for free to keep the $5 worth of crops. It can be done without unilaterally voiding water rights: just coordinate a way pay them to waive the drawing rights they'd normally have (such that it doesn't simply go to someone else with similarly skewed incentives). See David Zetland's "all-in auctions". Then, farmers would quit drawing so much for marginal crops, total usage would taper off, and aquifers would replenish. Infrastructure cost: $0. $100 billion is a steep price to pay to refuse to recognize relevant scarcities.
- tristanj 10y agoI agree that optimizing and reducing water consumption will alleviate water shortages. But I do wonder: given how the population of the US southwest is growing every year, how long can water optimization last? Today, California has 38 million residents, and by 2050 is projected to reach 60 million. Will optimization be enough to provide water for 20 million additional inhabitants? If the population keeps growing, will optimization be enough in the year 2100? And onwards? After a certain point it's not possible optimize any more and new water sources are needed.
- Someone 10y ago"The aqueduct would generate billions per year in hydroelectric power" Hydro-electric sounds green, but it would be nuclear-powered hydro-electric power, if I understand the Wikipedia article correctly (nuclear power pumps the water up the Rockies, hydro-electric recovers some/most/all/more on the way down)
- ageofwant 10y agoThis "solution" is a cure worse than the ailment. Those pesky "environmentalists" simply pointed that out.
- willvarfar 10y agoMassive projects to move water from where nature put it to where man wants it put always reminds me of the Aral Sea story in the old USSR.
- yeukhon 10y agoI was looking for just how expensive desalination would cost, using ocean water.. Google says "[d]esalinated water typically costs about $2,000 an acre foot -- roughly the amount of water a family of five uses in a year." Here is an article from a few years back, targeting 17 deslination plants by this year's July. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/getting-clean-water-from-the-sea-at-a-high-price/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/getting-clean-water-from-the-sea... The ending is so sad. Earlier this year gasoline was at as low as $1.3 here where I live in NYC (or even less I honestly can't remember how low!) Right now the gasoline price is at 2.37 where I live. > "I do see that water is the next oil," Webber notes, "that water is the great resource of the 21st century over which battles [will be] fought, money is invested." So here is what we need to do. Please invest more into desalination process. Make is so cheap we can produce water at a low cost.
- x0x0 10y agoTell the typical suburban family that water now costs $4k a year (you need to maintain all those pipes under the sidewalk, too) or $333/mo and you'll be able to hear the screaming from China. Not to mention lots of the coast is close to mountains, and piping water over mountains is too expensive... Californians, both humans and agriculture (that uses and wastes ludicrous amounts of water) desperately need to start using lots less water on a permanent basis.
- Symbiote 10y agoAn acre-foot (stupid unit!) is about 1.2 million litres. Five average Europeans use 250,000 litres per year, and pay €3.50/l for it. If they used as much as the Americans, that would be over $4000.
- TaylorGood 10y agoJust was fined $100 for going over recent usage standards set.. household gallons per month. Was told fees go up should overuse continue. Already swapped for low flush toilets.
- gruez 10y agoFunny how they're going after the residential users, who are responsible for a miniscule amount of the overall usage.
- gedy 10y agoBecause the politicians could care less about water usage, it's about control and money
- twelve40 10y agoI know, right? I keep reading about almonds and strawberries and whatnot. I'm all for conserving the water, but if all 40 million of us humans here would get wiped out and replaced by farmer robots, the water usage would not go down by much.
- labster 10y agoResidential users don't have 100 year old water rights. Much easier to restrict their use legally.
- mcv 10y agoDoes California still use drink water to flush toilets? There's an increasing movement to use "grey" water: water not suitable for drinking, but still good enough for flushing toilets and plenty of other purposes.
- craigyk 10y agoThe Water Knife: http://www.amazon.com/Water-Knife-Novel-Paolo-Bacigalupi/dp/1469298325 http://www.amazon.com/Water-Knife-Novel-Paolo-Bacigalupi/dp/... which repeatedly mentions the book Cadillac Desert (which my dad has been trying to get me to read for 15+ years, dads are smart).
- rdl 10y agoWhy can't cities buy the lower value/marginal farmers out (growing stuff like Alfalfa, or possibly tree fruits at the end of the useful lifespan of the trees)?
- gavanwoolery 10y agoWorth noting is that Israel has gone through this already and largely handled their problem. In fact, we have already begun collaboration with them: http://forward.com/news/national/318721/can-israel-help-californias-desert-bloom/ http://forward.com/news/national/318721/can-israel-help-cali...
- jcoffland 10y agoThe chicken-littles of this world just wont give up. Sure drought will always be an issue in CA but we've had a ton of rain this year, the reservoirs (esp. Shasta) are mostly full [0] and there is a good snow pack [1]. These politicians need to quit their whining and let go of the little powers they gained due to the recent drought. [0]: http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cdecapp/resapp/getResGraphsMain.action http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cdecapp/resapp/getResGraphsMain.act... [1]: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/03/160330-california-snow-survey-snowpack-water-drought/ http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/03/160330-california...