4 ms·

If the existing was the left side and the new was the right, would you feel the same way? I would definitely feel a lot safer on the left side, which is one of

by bluthru 10y ago

If the existing was the left side and the new was the right, would you feel the same way? I would definitely feel a lot safer on the left side, which is one of the main goals of night lighting.

vacri 10y ago
Your eyes adapt, though. Compare the shadow patches on the right side versus the shadow patches on the left. The left side is much clearer in the light patches, but the right is more consistent overall (supporting what cauterized says above about shadows). Another sleeper issue with rapidly changing light and dark patches is that if you manage to get them to flicker around 10-14Hz (driving through light+dark patches), you're going to provoke the occasional photoresponsive epileptic seizure. This has been seen in some roads in France where the trees were spaced in such a way that when the sun is low in the sky, it creates such a flicker. I don't know what the rate would be for driving along that road at a normal rate, but I'd be curious to find out. If it's a relatively short road, it would be unlikely to flicker long enough to provoke a seizure, even in the right frequency ranges.
- bluthru 10y ago
  >Your eyes adapt, though. Not to the point where one would feel as safe on the right as they do to the left. >the right is more consistent overall That's because of the fixtures--there's a reason they are causing lens flares while the left side isn't.
  - simoncion 10y ago
    If "feels safe" is our goal, we're gonna be chasing those taillights forever. :/ I live on an incredibly well lit block in a very well lit part of SF. [0] I'm a couple of blocks away from a substantially less well lit block. [1] It's much more enjoyable to walk through the less well lit block than the more well lit ones. I expect that it's significantly nicer for the folks living in the apartments on that block, too. Light pollution also affects people who aren't astronomers. :( [0] Seriously, you can easily read a book on the street in just about any part of the TL. On my block, the fixtures are 50->75% as bright as daylight. [1] That is to say, you'd have to strain your eyes to read a book on that section of the street.
    - bluthru 10y ago
      >It's much more enjoyable to walk through the less well lit block than the more well lit ones. I'm guessing this isn't the Tenderloin.
      - simoncion 10y ago
        It's as much the North TL as my block is. The "dark" block is actually unique in the area; the surrounding blocks are significantly more well lit. You have to travel significantly deeper into Nob Hill to find more blocks that are that dark. I often idly wonder if it's kept that dark because of the tranny (and non-trans [0]) hookers that work the area. [0] Does it count as trans if it's only crossdressing? Labels are weird, man. :)
        simoncion 10y ago
        To the downvoters: You should understand that I don't see the drug dealers and prostitutes on the streets as a blight on the city, but rather as business men and women who are often rather pleasant to talk to. :-) I strongly suspect that the TL is where dealers and prostitutes are encouraged to move to by the SFPD. (Largely because the TL turns into an open-air drug market around midday and an open-air drug and prostitution market towards the evening, and has continuously done so for the past ~5.5 years I've been living here.) This is -in my eyes- a positive feature rather than a bug.
    - mmel 10y ago
      >Seriously, you can easily read a book on the street in just about any part of the TL. On my block, the fixtures are 50->75% as bright as daylight. I HIGHLY doubt that.Sunlight provides ~98,000 lux[1], while common street lighting is around 15 lux [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight [2] https://www.use-ip.co.uk/datasheets/lux_light_level_chart.pdf https://www.use-ip.co.uk/datasheets/lux_light_level_chart.pd...
      - Aeolos 10y ago
        Perceived brightness after pupil dilation is what matters. If you can easily read a book then it's already too bright to sleep.
  - contravariant 10y ago
    Am I the only one who doesn't feel safe when exposed to blindingly bright lights with lots of deep shadows around me? I'd much prefer a more evenly lit road, with lights that don't blast away any night vision you might have.
coin 10y ago
> feel a lot safer What's more important, perceived or actual safety?
- bluthru 10y ago
  Why would they be different in this scenario? One side is brighter with more accurate colors.
  - cauterized 10y ago
    The article points out research that indicates that brighter lighting doesn't have a measurable effect on either crime or car safety.
    - bluthru 10y ago
      I'm skeptical that there is enough data to be so sure. Some say it's better for drivers avoiding pedestrians: http://www.osram.com/osram_com/news-and-knowledge/led-home/led-trends/urban-safety/index.jsp http://www.osram.com/osram_com/news-and-knowledge/led-home/l... While others say it makes them feel safer: http://www.treehugger.com/urban-design/friendly-streets-study-shows-pedestrians-feel-safer-white-streetlights.html http://www.treehugger.com/urban-design/friendly-streets-stud... Does feeling safer matter? Increasing comfort is good, but it could also encourage more pedestrian activity and "eyes on the street" to dissuade crime as well.
      - cauterized 10y ago
        Sure, feeling safer matters. But in a neighborhood that's already extremely safe and residents feel safe, you don't need glaring white lights to accomplish that. Slightly brighter lights than the sodium ones, sure. But "brighter" and "feels safer" can be accomplished while keeping them at a warm temperature and somewhere halfway up the scale from dim, instead of cranked all the way up to glaring. Besides, as I mentioned in a previous comment, the blindingly deep shadows produced by the higher contrast of the bright lights makes me feel LESS safe because I now can make out less of what's around me. And finally, feeling safe in and of itself doesn't have that much value, as anyone who disapproves of the TSA's security theater or the NSA's surveillance will gladly explain.

by bluthru 10y ago

If the existing was the left side and the new was the right, would you feel the same way? I would definitely feel a lot safer on the left side, which is one of the main goals of night lighting.

vacri 10y ago

Your eyes adapt, though. Compare the shadow patches on the right side versus the shadow patches on the left. The left side is much clearer in the light patches, but the right is more consistent overall (supporting what cauterized says above about shadows). Another sleeper issue with rapidly changing light and dark patches is that if you manage to get them to flicker around 10-14Hz (driving through light+dark patches), you're going to provoke the occasional photoresponsive epileptic seizure. This has been seen in some roads in France where the trees were spaced in such a way that when the sun is low in the sky, it creates such a flicker. I don't know what the rate would be for driving along that road at a normal rate, but I'd be curious to find out. If it's a relatively short road, it would be unlikely to flicker long enough to provoke a seizure, even in the right frequency ranges.

bluthru 10y ago
>Your eyes adapt, though. Not to the point where one would feel as safe on the right as they do to the left. >the right is more consistent overall That's because of the fixtures--there's a reason they are causing lens flares while the left side isn't.
- simoncion 10y ago
  If "feels safe" is our goal, we're gonna be chasing those taillights forever. :/ I live on an incredibly well lit block in a very well lit part of SF. [0] I'm a couple of blocks away from a substantially less well lit block. [1] It's much more enjoyable to walk through the less well lit block than the more well lit ones. I expect that it's significantly nicer for the folks living in the apartments on that block, too. Light pollution also affects people who aren't astronomers. :( [0] Seriously, you can easily read a book on the street in just about any part of the TL. On my block, the fixtures are 50->75% as bright as daylight. [1] That is to say, you'd have to strain your eyes to read a book on that section of the street.
  - bluthru 10y ago
    >It's much more enjoyable to walk through the less well lit block than the more well lit ones. I'm guessing this isn't the Tenderloin.
    - simoncion 10y ago
      It's as much the North TL as my block is. The "dark" block is actually unique in the area; the surrounding blocks are significantly more well lit. You have to travel significantly deeper into Nob Hill to find more blocks that are that dark. I often idly wonder if it's kept that dark because of the tranny (and non-trans [0]) hookers that work the area. [0] Does it count as trans if it's only crossdressing? Labels are weird, man. :)
      - simoncion 10y ago
        To the downvoters: You should understand that I don't see the drug dealers and prostitutes on the streets as a blight on the city, but rather as business men and women who are often rather pleasant to talk to. :-) I strongly suspect that the TL is where dealers and prostitutes are encouraged to move to by the SFPD. (Largely because the TL turns into an open-air drug market around midday and an open-air drug and prostitution market towards the evening, and has continuously done so for the past ~5.5 years I've been living here.) This is -in my eyes- a positive feature rather than a bug.
  - mmel 10y ago
    >Seriously, you can easily read a book on the street in just about any part of the TL. On my block, the fixtures are 50->75% as bright as daylight. I HIGHLY doubt that.Sunlight provides ~98,000 lux[1], while common street lighting is around 15 lux [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight [2] https://www.use-ip.co.uk/datasheets/lux_light_level_chart.pdf https://www.use-ip.co.uk/datasheets/lux_light_level_chart.pd...
    - Aeolos 10y ago
      Perceived brightness after pupil dilation is what matters. If you can easily read a book then it's already too bright to sleep.
- contravariant 10y ago
  Am I the only one who doesn't feel safe when exposed to blindingly bright lights with lots of deep shadows around me? I'd much prefer a more evenly lit road, with lights that don't blast away any night vision you might have.

coin 10y ago

> feel a lot safer What's more important, perceived or actual safety?

bluthru 10y ago
Why would they be different in this scenario? One side is brighter with more accurate colors.
- cauterized 10y ago
  The article points out research that indicates that brighter lighting doesn't have a measurable effect on either crime or car safety.
  - bluthru 10y ago
    I'm skeptical that there is enough data to be so sure. Some say it's better for drivers avoiding pedestrians: http://www.osram.com/osram_com/news-and-knowledge/led-home/led-trends/urban-safety/index.jsp http://www.osram.com/osram_com/news-and-knowledge/led-home/l... While others say it makes them feel safer: http://www.treehugger.com/urban-design/friendly-streets-study-shows-pedestrians-feel-safer-white-streetlights.html http://www.treehugger.com/urban-design/friendly-streets-stud... Does feeling safer matter? Increasing comfort is good, but it could also encourage more pedestrian activity and "eyes on the street" to dissuade crime as well.
    - cauterized 10y ago
      Sure, feeling safer matters. But in a neighborhood that's already extremely safe and residents feel safe, you don't need glaring white lights to accomplish that. Slightly brighter lights than the sodium ones, sure. But "brighter" and "feels safer" can be accomplished while keeping them at a warm temperature and somewhere halfway up the scale from dim, instead of cranked all the way up to glaring. Besides, as I mentioned in a previous comment, the blindingly deep shadows produced by the higher contrast of the bright lights makes me feel LESS safe because I now can make out less of what's around me. And finally, feeling safe in and of itself doesn't have that much value, as anyone who disapproves of the TSA's security theater or the NSA's surveillance will gladly explain.