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The thing is that: using offshore tax havens isn't corruption. It's legal. Corruption is when you use your position or influence in the government to help your

The thing is that: using offshore tax havens isn't corruption. It's legal. Corruption is when you use your position or influence in the government to help yourself. (Often by helping someone else who then gives you kickbacks somehow.)

bdavisx 10y ago
>The thing is that: using offshore tax havens isn't corruption. It's legal. It may or not be legal, I'm pretty sure a lot of the people in the list are using for Tax Evasion.
- pc86 10y ago
  > It may or not be legal It is legal - waffling about like it's up for debate doesn't change the fact. It's 100% legal, full stop. > I'm pretty sure a lot of the people in the list are using for Tax Evasion. Based on what evidence, exactly?
- chimeracoder 10y ago
  > [Using offshore tax havens] may or not be legal, I'm pretty sure a lot of the people in the list are using for Tax Evasion. Nope. The majority of the information contained in the Panama Papers does not pertain to any illegal activity[0] (tax evasion is illegal). And even of the information that provides evidence of illegal activity, most of it is illegal for reasons that have nothing to do with taxation. Some of the information does point to transactions that were otherwise illegal (such as drug cartel money), but that is in the minority of the information leaked. Using offshore tax havens isn't illegal in se. And in fact, most uses of offshore tax havens aren't going to be illegal, because if you're going to do something illegal (tax evasion), why bother to use an offshore tax haven? The whole point of using an offshore tax haven is to to reduce tax liability through legal means[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers#Disclosures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers#Disclosures [1] Not to be confused with the goal of using hard-to-trace offshore bank accounts to (e.g.) launder drug money or money obtained through bribery, which is illegal but has nothing to do with taxes.
MagnumOpus 10y ago
The thing is that: using offshore tax havens via an expensive law firm as a private person is not illegal per se, but in 99.9% of cases is used to hide illegal activities - most odiously straight-out looting of a country's public finances by officials (like in Russia), but also pedestrian crimes against the public like tax evasion or receiving bribes, or the fraudulent hiding of assets from civil affairs like bankruptcy or divorce proceedings.
- saint_fiasco 10y ago
  That sounds suspiciously similar to the old "TOR is for pedophiles" argument.
- cpncrunch 10y ago
  >99.9% of cases is used to hide illegal activities Do you have any evidence to back up that 99.9% statistic? Even many of the public disclosures haven't been illegal (for example David Cameron's investment fund was 100% legal and he paid all the UK taxes required).
dredmorbius 10y ago
It's legal because, as noted by Adam Smith: "Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power." The rich write the laws. In many cases here, the rich are the law. And as John Doe (the Panama Papers leaker) wrote in his manifesto this weekend: The prevailing media narrative thus far has focused on the scandal of what is legal and allowed in this system. What is allowed is indeed scandalous and must be changed. But we must not lose sight of another important fact: the law firm, its founders, and employees actually did knowingly violate myriad laws worldwide, repeatedly. Publicly they plead ignorance, but the documents show detailed knowledge and deliberate wrongdoing. At the very least we already know that Mossack personally perjured himself before a federal court in Nevada, and we also know that his information technology staff attempted to cover up the underlying lies. They should all be prosecuted accordingly with no special treatment. https://panamapapers.icij.org/20160506-john-doe-statement.html https://panamapapers.icij.org/20160506-john-doe-statement.ht...
- cpncrunch 10y ago
  >It's legal because, as noted by Adam Smith: "Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power." No. It's legal because it's a reasonable and morally acceptable thing to do. You put money in an offshore account, then pay tax in your home country. No moral or legal problems there. There are many valid and morally acceptable reasons for doing this. The problem is when people don't pay the taxes in their home country.
  - acqq 10y ago
    > There are many valid and morally acceptable reasons for doing this. In order for all of us to stay focused on Panama leaks, can you please specify just the most common reasons for putting money in Panama? If you don't know which most common reasons are, then please at least those which you'd believe were most common, among "many"? Thanks in advance.
    - dredmorbius 10y ago
      May I suggest adding the condition of noting what fraction of offshore funds fall under such classification?
qaq 10y ago
Using offshores is legal but they are often a vehicle used by corrupt officials to hide the illegal proceeds.

bdavisx 10y ago

>The thing is that: using offshore tax havens isn't corruption. It's legal. It may or not be legal, I'm pretty sure a lot of the people in the list are using for Tax Evasion.

pc86 10y ago
> It may or not be legal It is legal - waffling about like it's up for debate doesn't change the fact. It's 100% legal, full stop. > I'm pretty sure a lot of the people in the list are using for Tax Evasion. Based on what evidence, exactly?
chimeracoder 10y ago
> [Using offshore tax havens] may or not be legal, I'm pretty sure a lot of the people in the list are using for Tax Evasion. Nope. The majority of the information contained in the Panama Papers does not pertain to any illegal activity[0] (tax evasion is illegal). And even of the information that provides evidence of illegal activity, most of it is illegal for reasons that have nothing to do with taxation. Some of the information does point to transactions that were otherwise illegal (such as drug cartel money), but that is in the minority of the information leaked. Using offshore tax havens isn't illegal in se. And in fact, most uses of offshore tax havens aren't going to be illegal, because if you're going to do something illegal (tax evasion), why bother to use an offshore tax haven? The whole point of using an offshore tax haven is to to reduce tax liability through legal means[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers#Disclosures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers#Disclosures [1] Not to be confused with the goal of using hard-to-trace offshore bank accounts to (e.g.) launder drug money or money obtained through bribery, which is illegal but has nothing to do with taxes.

MagnumOpus 10y ago

The thing is that: using offshore tax havens via an expensive law firm as a private person is not illegal per se, but in 99.9% of cases is used to hide illegal activities - most odiously straight-out looting of a country's public finances by officials (like in Russia), but also pedestrian crimes against the public like tax evasion or receiving bribes, or the fraudulent hiding of assets from civil affairs like bankruptcy or divorce proceedings.

saint_fiasco 10y ago
That sounds suspiciously similar to the old "TOR is for pedophiles" argument.
cpncrunch 10y ago
>99.9% of cases is used to hide illegal activities Do you have any evidence to back up that 99.9% statistic? Even many of the public disclosures haven't been illegal (for example David Cameron's investment fund was 100% legal and he paid all the UK taxes required).

dredmorbius 10y ago

It's legal because, as noted by Adam Smith: "Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power." The rich write the laws. In many cases here, the rich are the law. And as John Doe (the Panama Papers leaker) wrote in his manifesto this weekend: The prevailing media narrative thus far has focused on the scandal of what is legal and allowed in this system. What is allowed is indeed scandalous and must be changed. But we must not lose sight of another important fact: the law firm, its founders, and employees actually did knowingly violate myriad laws worldwide, repeatedly. Publicly they plead ignorance, but the documents show detailed knowledge and deliberate wrongdoing. At the very least we already know that Mossack personally perjured himself before a federal court in Nevada, and we also know that his information technology staff attempted to cover up the underlying lies. They should all be prosecuted accordingly with no special treatment. https://panamapapers.icij.org/20160506-john-doe-statement.html https://panamapapers.icij.org/20160506-john-doe-statement.ht...

cpncrunch 10y ago
>It's legal because, as noted by Adam Smith: "Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power." No. It's legal because it's a reasonable and morally acceptable thing to do. You put money in an offshore account, then pay tax in your home country. No moral or legal problems there. There are many valid and morally acceptable reasons for doing this. The problem is when people don't pay the taxes in their home country.
- acqq 10y ago
  > There are many valid and morally acceptable reasons for doing this. In order for all of us to stay focused on Panama leaks, can you please specify just the most common reasons for putting money in Panama? If you don't know which most common reasons are, then please at least those which you'd believe were most common, among "many"? Thanks in advance.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    May I suggest adding the condition of noting what fraction of offshore funds fall under such classification?

qaq 10y ago

Using offshores is legal but they are often a vehicle used by corrupt officials to hide the illegal proceeds.