5 ms·

The choice between "dense urban core" and "suburb" is distinctly American. Especially in Europe, city (in the sense of "not suburb or rural" != center of a larg

The choice between "dense urban core" and "suburb" is distinctly American. Especially in Europe, city (in the sense of "not suburb or rural" != center of a large (1M+) population. In America, any region with a population the order of 100k or less is basically a shopping area surrounded by suburbs. The same is not true in Europe. In Europe, you can definitely find walkable, breathable, friendly cities while still living in an area that is safer than (and has a smaller population than) the typical Chicago suburban area.

vasilipupkin 10y ago
I disagree. Typical Chicago suburban area is safer than Europe. If you exclude homicides, most of which happen on the south side of Chicago, Europe has a lot more crime
abalashov 10y ago
Indeed; in Europe, you can find the same reproduced at the village and hamlet level, too. It's a density issue, at heart. Any US "city" (if it should be called that) of 100K-500K occupies 10x-20x the surface area that it would in most parts of the world, removing much of the cohesion that leads us to call places cities or towns in the first place.
- tptacek 10y ago
  I think you're going to get in trouble with generalizations like "any US city", or even "any US city of 100k-500k". Can you be more specific about the faux-cities you're referring to, rather than nerd-baiting me to come up with a list of cities that defy your criteria?
  - abalashov 10y ago
    I should know better than to use words like "any" with programmers, it's true. In response, I started compiling a list, but then I realised I can't think of a counterexample. "Any" might be just about right. Do you know of one? I'm thinking of places like Indianapolis, Fairfax, Macon (GA), almost all college towns I've been to...
    - tptacek 10y ago
      The one that sprang immediately to mind was Ann Arbor, Michigan, because I used to live there. But I can come up with more, if you like. Your argument is that mid-sized US cities with densities comparable to European cities are rare, and that this causes pathology. That sounds intuitively defensible, because America definitely has more space to play with for its cities than Europe. But let's try to be specific. What's a model European city, so we can compare its density to some set of American cities?
      - abalashov 10y ago
        I spent my middle and high school years in Athens, GA. It would not ordinarily be seen as a target for sprawl-bashing, given its ostensibly compact nature. And it's true, the downtown and campus are fused into something fairly livable. However, as usual, 90% of the population doesn't live in that tiny core, but instead in the same kind of low-density layout one can find anywhere in America. While I haven't been to Ann Arbor since grade six or so, my recollection is that it's similar; wonderful UMich campus, nice downtown, but most of the Ann Arbor-Ypsilanti area? Same old automobile folk traditions. Am I misremembering? Re: comparing density -- Density is certainly not the only variable. In my article, I made the point about how proximity/adjacency != walking accessibility. That seems relevant, too. It's probably quite possible to build a place with a decently high density where a car is still required to go anywhere, or a relatively low-density but profoundly pedestrian-friendly hamlet.
        tptacek 10y ago
        I know Athens solely from REM and Elephant 6 music. I've never been there. Saline and Ypsi are suburbs of Ann Arbor. Ann Arbor itself is mostly walkable, tree-lined, mixed-use, and connected by public transportation. More than 90% of the population of Ann Arbor lives in Ann Arbor and not Ypsi or Saline. :) What are the rest of the variables? I'd like to drive to specificity. If there's a set of US midsized cities that defies your characterizations, maybe there's something interesting that ties them together. I'm certainly not going to deny that there are crappy cities!
_delirium 10y ago
I don't think it's a distinctly American term. The distinction between the "city" and "suburbs" or "commuter belt" is pretty common in Europe too, at least in cities that actually have such a pattern, especially with a radial commuter-rail network and clearly defined commercial center. For example I don't think anybody that lives in Ishøj or Brøndby is under the impression that they live in an independent "city"; they live in a suburb of Copenhagen, whose main virtue is that it's cheaper than Copenhagen but has good access via the S-train. A large proportion of the commuter belt of London, Paris, Marseilles, Lyon, Stockholm, Copenhagen, Brussels, Rome, etc. are places like that, some nicer and some more depressing, but definitely suburbs that exist mainly to house people who commute in to the city.

vasilipupkin 10y ago

I disagree. Typical Chicago suburban area is safer than Europe. If you exclude homicides, most of which happen on the south side of Chicago, Europe has a lot more crime

abalashov 10y ago

Indeed; in Europe, you can find the same reproduced at the village and hamlet level, too. It's a density issue, at heart. Any US "city" (if it should be called that) of 100K-500K occupies 10x-20x the surface area that it would in most parts of the world, removing much of the cohesion that leads us to call places cities or towns in the first place.

tptacek 10y ago
I think you're going to get in trouble with generalizations like "any US city", or even "any US city of 100k-500k". Can you be more specific about the faux-cities you're referring to, rather than nerd-baiting me to come up with a list of cities that defy your criteria?
- abalashov 10y ago
  I should know better than to use words like "any" with programmers, it's true. In response, I started compiling a list, but then I realised I can't think of a counterexample. "Any" might be just about right. Do you know of one? I'm thinking of places like Indianapolis, Fairfax, Macon (GA), almost all college towns I've been to...
  - tptacek 10y ago
    The one that sprang immediately to mind was Ann Arbor, Michigan, because I used to live there. But I can come up with more, if you like. Your argument is that mid-sized US cities with densities comparable to European cities are rare, and that this causes pathology. That sounds intuitively defensible, because America definitely has more space to play with for its cities than Europe. But let's try to be specific. What's a model European city, so we can compare its density to some set of American cities?
    - abalashov 10y ago
      I spent my middle and high school years in Athens, GA. It would not ordinarily be seen as a target for sprawl-bashing, given its ostensibly compact nature. And it's true, the downtown and campus are fused into something fairly livable. However, as usual, 90% of the population doesn't live in that tiny core, but instead in the same kind of low-density layout one can find anywhere in America. While I haven't been to Ann Arbor since grade six or so, my recollection is that it's similar; wonderful UMich campus, nice downtown, but most of the Ann Arbor-Ypsilanti area? Same old automobile folk traditions. Am I misremembering? Re: comparing density -- Density is certainly not the only variable. In my article, I made the point about how proximity/adjacency != walking accessibility. That seems relevant, too. It's probably quite possible to build a place with a decently high density where a car is still required to go anywhere, or a relatively low-density but profoundly pedestrian-friendly hamlet.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        I know Athens solely from REM and Elephant 6 music. I've never been there. Saline and Ypsi are suburbs of Ann Arbor. Ann Arbor itself is mostly walkable, tree-lined, mixed-use, and connected by public transportation. More than 90% of the population of Ann Arbor lives in Ann Arbor and not Ypsi or Saline. :) What are the rest of the variables? I'd like to drive to specificity. If there's a set of US midsized cities that defies your characterizations, maybe there's something interesting that ties them together. I'm certainly not going to deny that there are crappy cities!

_delirium 10y ago

I don't think it's a distinctly American term. The distinction between the "city" and "suburbs" or "commuter belt" is pretty common in Europe too, at least in cities that actually have such a pattern, especially with a radial commuter-rail network and clearly defined commercial center. For example I don't think anybody that lives in Ishøj or Brøndby is under the impression that they live in an independent "city"; they live in a suburb of Copenhagen, whose main virtue is that it's cheaper than Copenhagen but has good access via the S-train. A large proportion of the commuter belt of London, Paris, Marseilles, Lyon, Stockholm, Copenhagen, Brussels, Rome, etc. are places like that, some nicer and some more depressing, but definitely suburbs that exist mainly to house people who commute in to the city.