6 ms·

I get not wanting Apple to manage payments or data analytics. Wouldn't it be possible for podcasters to add some sort of protocol for paid podcasts that could

by rtpg 10y ago

I get not wanting Apple to manage payments or data analytics. Wouldn't it be possible for podcasters to add some sort of protocol for paid podcasts that could be integrated into apps? Like "purchase URL" (or some sort of stripe-y token or anything). I also don't really think that giving podcast producers playback data would be a bad thing. The thing that creeps me out the most about ad cookies on the web is the cross-domain tracking, but if we're talking about behavioural data for a podcast just to that producer, sounds like it could be a net benefit. I feel like this post is mixing concepts (making paid content in podcast form more viable) with implementation details (Apple doing it). Though it's in response to the NYT article that does the same thing. Feel like there's a lack of imagination, and there likely are ways to do things in a decentralised way

jsnell 10y ago
HTTP basic auth is a widely supported and widely used way of doing paid podcast feeds. Most typically the podcasts apps just require you to enter the login details in the feed URL, some fancier apps have proper UIs for entering the username / password. There is very little need to have a fancier protocol than that.
- rtpg 10y ago
  Good point, but I feel like that's not the entire picture. One thing to think about with this is to look at what Steam did with indie games. Valve basically made full-time indie game makers survive by essentially creating an easily discoverable platform. Nowadays there are a couple extra platforms (Humble Store, G2G), so it's not a monopoly, but people have been pretty clear that Steam is the major source of revenue by far. Do we not want that for podcasting? Being able to pay directly for high-quality content, but also having the discoverable ecosystem. If Apple decides to tackle this (they're really close to having this with iTunes, you can buy old TAL eps or the like), then it's going to be super closed and basically the app store. If the golden age of indie games has proven anything, it's that supporting better discovery would be a net win to the quality of content going out there. Saying "oh, well we already have this through passworded feeds" is leaving the door open for a less open solution. Instead of saying "no because this implementation is stupid", I would much rather hear Marco offer an alternative that could be open. Though I don't know his position on paid content, really. Rallying around a more open alternative is the best way to counter a closed solution. Right now Apple is the best placed to build good discovery (iTunes already is that for free content), so somebody needs to step up to the plate if they want to avoid Apple's content rules becoming the norm.
  - madeofpalk 10y ago
    Rather than looking at Steam, look at the App Store. I don't think anyone wants podcasting to end up like the App Store. This is the general premise of Marco's article.
    - rtpg 10y ago
      I get that Marco's talking about the App Store. Consider Marco has Overcast, he's in a _very_ good position to offer an alternative solution to the problem he's talking about though. I wouldn't mind podcasting ending up like Steam/indie games in general. Everything's a lot better than it used to be in that domain. I don't know what advertising rates come out at cost per listener but my gut feeling is that if ATP charged a dollar instead of doing ad reads they'd pull in more. And more importantly shows that have too small of an audience to be viable through ads could become viable. Of course, like Jason said, you can already do this. But who wants to configure their billing info across 10 different websites?
      - madeofpalk 10y ago
        But that would take podcasting from an open platform controlled, technically, by no one. To a closed platform controlled by one company. That one company being Apple. Has Marco said - "be careful what you wish for". I think Marco is fairly happy with how things are at the moment and doesn't want it to change. That's why he doesn't suggest anything.
        rtpg 10y ago
        Right, I'm saying that that company could be not Apple, and that the system could be built in a way so that other companies could also participate. It doesn't necessarily have to be on a technical level. Imagine the following: - Company starts a "distribution network" (much like current ones) for paid podcasts. You sign up, get a personallised feed to all podcasts you are currently paying for. Passworded feed maybe. - Overcast also searches this distribution network and points that this is a paid podcast, directs to website. Alternatively, people just go to this website because it has good content or whatever - Other distribution networks do the same thing, offering different payment strategies/genres/whatever. Basically no technical differences from before. Same feeds, nobody controls the distribution more than currently. It could end up with one big player, but by moving forward and giving a viable path for people who want to make discoverable paid content ("Oh I'll just throw it up onto Podscription", name's a freebee for anyone who wants to do this). If someone else does it and gains traction to reach a critical mass, suddenly Apple can not build a closed system for this. But if nobody does it, and Apple suddenly says 'Oh, here's our iTunes Premier Podcasts. Tap into our existing audience (but only works in iOS Podcast player)' then it's game over. Doing nothing is giving Apple this pathway if they ever want to do it. Helping to move an alternative forward for something in which there seems to be demand will block Apple from closing everything off.
bad_user 10y ago
> there likely are ways to do things in a decentralised way Judging by recent trends in media consumption (DRM, iTunes, Kindle, Audible, Netflix, Google Play, Facebook, etc), nobody is going to do that, the overall strategy being to lock-in users and screw them of any sense of control, portability and ownership and to milk publishers for all their worth. Decentralized you say? That's wild imagination.
- rtpg 10y ago
  I don't know if many of those are good examples. when I buy music off of iTunes or Google Play Music, I can download the MP3s for local copies. I don't know how Netflix is any different than cable TV. It's not like HBO shipped you tapes after eps of the Sopranos. This is a pretty good example of how much bad PR is generated from DRM. I heard it took 3 years after Apple removed all DRM from purchased content for people to mostly stop saying iTunes stuff was DRM'd.
  - bad_user 10y ago
    Apple's iTunes is single handily responsible for popularizing DRM and MP3s isn't the only thing they sell. But if you think music is free of DRM, maybe you haven't noticed, but plan B is in effect: https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/ https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-mus...
    - Karunamon 10y ago
      That article is horribly misnamed. The author lost their files to either a bug, or bad design. Not DRM.
      - bad_user 10y ago
        That's no bug, being how enrollment in Apple Music worked when I tried it. And the purpose is to relieve the user of owned files replacing them with a streaming service, which is DRM enabled, losing access even to music for which the user owned the copyright upon cancellation. This is the essence of DRM, the user losing all control of his purchased content. There is however something in the way you expressed yourself. Is this a strawman attempt?

by rtpg 10y ago

jsnell 10y ago

HTTP basic auth is a widely supported and widely used way of doing paid podcast feeds. Most typically the podcasts apps just require you to enter the login details in the feed URL, some fancier apps have proper UIs for entering the username / password. There is very little need to have a fancier protocol than that.

rtpg 10y ago
Good point, but I feel like that's not the entire picture. One thing to think about with this is to look at what Steam did with indie games. Valve basically made full-time indie game makers survive by essentially creating an easily discoverable platform. Nowadays there are a couple extra platforms (Humble Store, G2G), so it's not a monopoly, but people have been pretty clear that Steam is the major source of revenue by far. Do we not want that for podcasting? Being able to pay directly for high-quality content, but also having the discoverable ecosystem. If Apple decides to tackle this (they're really close to having this with iTunes, you can buy old TAL eps or the like), then it's going to be super closed and basically the app store. If the golden age of indie games has proven anything, it's that supporting better discovery would be a net win to the quality of content going out there. Saying "oh, well we already have this through passworded feeds" is leaving the door open for a less open solution. Instead of saying "no because this implementation is stupid", I would much rather hear Marco offer an alternative that could be open. Though I don't know his position on paid content, really. Rallying around a more open alternative is the best way to counter a closed solution. Right now Apple is the best placed to build good discovery (iTunes already is that for free content), so somebody needs to step up to the plate if they want to avoid Apple's content rules becoming the norm.
- madeofpalk 10y ago
  Rather than looking at Steam, look at the App Store. I don't think anyone wants podcasting to end up like the App Store. This is the general premise of Marco's article.
  - rtpg 10y ago
    I get that Marco's talking about the App Store. Consider Marco has Overcast, he's in a _very_ good position to offer an alternative solution to the problem he's talking about though. I wouldn't mind podcasting ending up like Steam/indie games in general. Everything's a lot better than it used to be in that domain. I don't know what advertising rates come out at cost per listener but my gut feeling is that if ATP charged a dollar instead of doing ad reads they'd pull in more. And more importantly shows that have too small of an audience to be viable through ads could become viable. Of course, like Jason said, you can already do this. But who wants to configure their billing info across 10 different websites?
    - madeofpalk 10y ago
      But that would take podcasting from an open platform controlled, technically, by no one. To a closed platform controlled by one company. That one company being Apple. Has Marco said - "be careful what you wish for". I think Marco is fairly happy with how things are at the moment and doesn't want it to change. That's why he doesn't suggest anything.
      - rtpg 10y ago
        Right, I'm saying that that company could be not Apple, and that the system could be built in a way so that other companies could also participate. It doesn't necessarily have to be on a technical level. Imagine the following: - Company starts a "distribution network" (much like current ones) for paid podcasts. You sign up, get a personallised feed to all podcasts you are currently paying for. Passworded feed maybe. - Overcast also searches this distribution network and points that this is a paid podcast, directs to website. Alternatively, people just go to this website because it has good content or whatever - Other distribution networks do the same thing, offering different payment strategies/genres/whatever. Basically no technical differences from before. Same feeds, nobody controls the distribution more than currently. It could end up with one big player, but by moving forward and giving a viable path for people who want to make discoverable paid content ("Oh I'll just throw it up onto Podscription", name's a freebee for anyone who wants to do this). If someone else does it and gains traction to reach a critical mass, suddenly Apple can not build a closed system for this. But if nobody does it, and Apple suddenly says 'Oh, here's our iTunes Premier Podcasts. Tap into our existing audience (but only works in iOS Podcast player)' then it's game over. Doing nothing is giving Apple this pathway if they ever want to do it. Helping to move an alternative forward for something in which there seems to be demand will block Apple from closing everything off.

bad_user 10y ago

> there likely are ways to do things in a decentralised way Judging by recent trends in media consumption (DRM, iTunes, Kindle, Audible, Netflix, Google Play, Facebook, etc), nobody is going to do that, the overall strategy being to lock-in users and screw them of any sense of control, portability and ownership and to milk publishers for all their worth. Decentralized you say? That's wild imagination.

rtpg 10y ago
I don't know if many of those are good examples. when I buy music off of iTunes or Google Play Music, I can download the MP3s for local copies. I don't know how Netflix is any different than cable TV. It's not like HBO shipped you tapes after eps of the Sopranos. This is a pretty good example of how much bad PR is generated from DRM. I heard it took 3 years after Apple removed all DRM from purchased content for people to mostly stop saying iTunes stuff was DRM'd.
- bad_user 10y ago
  Apple's iTunes is single handily responsible for popularizing DRM and MP3s isn't the only thing they sell. But if you think music is free of DRM, maybe you haven't noticed, but plan B is in effect: https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-music-no-seriously/ https://blog.vellumatlanta.com/2016/05/04/apple-stole-my-mus...
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    That article is horribly misnamed. The author lost their files to either a bug, or bad design. Not DRM.
    - bad_user 10y ago
      That's no bug, being how enrollment in Apple Music worked when I tried it. And the purpose is to relieve the user of owned files replacing them with a streaming service, which is DRM enabled, losing access even to music for which the user owned the copyright upon cancellation. This is the essence of DRM, the user losing all control of his purchased content. There is however something in the way you expressed yourself. Is this a strawman attempt?