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The real issue for Uber and Lyft may be the fact that fingerprinting puts them closer to needing to classify drivers as employees instead of contractors. They c

The real issue for Uber and Lyft may be the fact that fingerprinting puts them closer to needing to classify drivers as employees instead of contractors. They could surely solve any friction around fingerprinting, but requiring drivers to be classified as employees would put them out of business. Fingerprinting through a government clearinghouse is typically reserved for employees. IMO, they spent $8M on this local vote to delay the real issue as long as possible.

madeofpalk 10y ago
I'm also confused because similar legislation has passed elsewhere (like here in Australia) and Uber 'welcomed' it (in the sense that Uber was not made illegal) and continues to operate with the added sensible legislation.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  Perhaps the rules on what constitutes an employee vs contractor are different enough that Uber feels this wouldn't be a threat? Or perhaps the incentives are different enough that it matters less. Because it's not about finger prints: that's trivial to do. (Hell, you could probably come up with a simple lens to put on a cell phone to extract enough info to get a print... Not to mention existing services. They're lying if they say this puts too much burden and couldn't continue to operate. No, they want to keep the fiction that there are no Uber driver employees, that they're all, to use the brain-dead term working in the "sharing economy".
- legulere 10y ago
  In Germany you need a special drivers license to commercially transport people, which is mostly a background check and regular checkups that you're physically capable for driving people around. Uber used drivers that didn't have it until they were told to stop. It just shows again how Uber is trying to prey on competitors by ignoring all regulations.
  - xixixao 10y ago
    Wait, in Germany you cannot drive your family around without a special driving licence? Not all regulation makes sense...
    - bjelkeman-again 10y ago
      "Commercially transport people" he said. Do you normally charge a fee when you transport your family? If so the. You are a taxi service and fall under the regulations.
    - madeofpalk 10y ago
      The law isn't like programming. Judges typically see a difference between driving your family around driving for cash on Uber
      - Maxious 10y ago
        > The Queensland government hopes to tweak legislation linked to a contentious crackdown on Uber that inadvertently made charter buses and limousines illegal as well. > A spokesman for Transport Minister Stirling Hinchliffe, who received legal advice, on Thursday said the threat to all pre-booked passenger vehicles needed to be removed. http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/breaking-news/business-as-usual-for-uber-in-qld/news-story/d95fa9d71ac1fe443b5a219120e720f4?nk=8c674f54122d7a25f3b22062460ac8e8-1462702051 http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/breaking-news/business-as...
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - xixixao 10y ago
      I was reacting to "which is mostly a background check and regular checkups that you're physically capable for driving people around." Not worthy of downvotes imho.
MichaelGG 10y ago
Isn't one of the main questions (from the IRS) regarding an employee vs contractor the substitutability of the person? If you delegate work out, but must perform it yourself, then that's a major strike against being a contractor. Same for if you are told exactly how to do something v just what result is needed? Search IRS 20 questions. Here a non PDF result: https://daf.csulb.edu/admin_guidelines/guidelines/independent-contractor/irs-determination-factors.html https://daf.csulb.edu/admin_guidelines/guidelines/independen... I'm sure Uber is obviously more informed than me but seems like a tight line they're at. And the IRS can weigh in with their own decision, too.
- pbreit 10y ago
  I drive a few hours/month whenever & wherever I want including not at all. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to classify me as an employee.
  - adiabatty 10y ago
    On the other hand, this also describes the work patterns of substitute teachers in the local school district and they're classified as employees.
    - pbreit 10y ago
      Not always. And the employer has quite a bit more say in what is to be performed.
joshuaellinger 10y ago
Taxis classify their drivers as independent contractors. They are required to do fingerprinting.
koolba 10y ago
> Fingerprinting through a government clearinghouse is typically reserved for employees. Source? Financial services corporations fingerprint both their employees and contractors. I've never seen a distinction in the process for either.
- falsestprophet 10y ago
  The "contractor" relationship at a financial service company (in the US) is almost always structured as W-2 employee of a staff augmentation firm.
- courtneypowell 10y ago
  Here's an example of contractors requiring fingerprinting in a highly regulated environment pushing them to 'covered employee' status. The requirement of fingerprinting does not in and of itself make some an 'employee' or vice versa, but there are precedents in Texas, like this example, that could inch Uber even closer to this line. http://www.newcaneyisd.org/cms/lib5/TX01918142/Centricity/Domain/60/Independent%20Contractor%20Guidelines.pdf http://www.newcaneyisd.org/cms/lib5/TX01918142/Centricity/Do...
pbreit 10y ago
That doesn't sound right at all. Contractors are finger-printed, background checked, etc, all the time.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

madeofpalk 10y ago

I'm also confused because similar legislation has passed elsewhere (like here in Australia) and Uber 'welcomed' it (in the sense that Uber was not made illegal) and continues to operate with the added sensible legislation.

MichaelGG 10y ago
Perhaps the rules on what constitutes an employee vs contractor are different enough that Uber feels this wouldn't be a threat? Or perhaps the incentives are different enough that it matters less. Because it's not about finger prints: that's trivial to do. (Hell, you could probably come up with a simple lens to put on a cell phone to extract enough info to get a print... Not to mention existing services. They're lying if they say this puts too much burden and couldn't continue to operate. No, they want to keep the fiction that there are no Uber driver employees, that they're all, to use the brain-dead term working in the "sharing economy".
legulere 10y ago
In Germany you need a special drivers license to commercially transport people, which is mostly a background check and regular checkups that you're physically capable for driving people around. Uber used drivers that didn't have it until they were told to stop. It just shows again how Uber is trying to prey on competitors by ignoring all regulations.
- xixixao 10y ago
  Wait, in Germany you cannot drive your family around without a special driving licence? Not all regulation makes sense...
  - bjelkeman-again 10y ago
    "Commercially transport people" he said. Do you normally charge a fee when you transport your family? If so the. You are a taxi service and fall under the regulations.
  - madeofpalk 10y ago
    The law isn't like programming. Judges typically see a difference between driving your family around driving for cash on Uber
    - Maxious 10y ago
      > The Queensland government hopes to tweak legislation linked to a contentious crackdown on Uber that inadvertently made charter buses and limousines illegal as well. > A spokesman for Transport Minister Stirling Hinchliffe, who received legal advice, on Thursday said the threat to all pre-booked passenger vehicles needed to be removed. http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/breaking-news/business-as-usual-for-uber-in-qld/news-story/d95fa9d71ac1fe443b5a219120e720f4?nk=8c674f54122d7a25f3b22062460ac8e8-1462702051 http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/breaking-news/business-as...
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - xixixao 10y ago
    I was reacting to "which is mostly a background check and regular checkups that you're physically capable for driving people around." Not worthy of downvotes imho.

MichaelGG 10y ago

Isn't one of the main questions (from the IRS) regarding an employee vs contractor the substitutability of the person? If you delegate work out, but must perform it yourself, then that's a major strike against being a contractor. Same for if you are told exactly how to do something v just what result is needed? Search IRS 20 questions. Here a non PDF result: https://daf.csulb.edu/admin_guidelines/guidelines/independent-contractor/irs-determination-factors.html https://daf.csulb.edu/admin_guidelines/guidelines/independen... I'm sure Uber is obviously more informed than me but seems like a tight line they're at. And the IRS can weigh in with their own decision, too.

pbreit 10y ago
I drive a few hours/month whenever & wherever I want including not at all. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to classify me as an employee.
- adiabatty 10y ago
  On the other hand, this also describes the work patterns of substitute teachers in the local school district and they're classified as employees.
  - pbreit 10y ago
    Not always. And the employer has quite a bit more say in what is to be performed.

joshuaellinger 10y ago

Taxis classify their drivers as independent contractors. They are required to do fingerprinting.

koolba 10y ago

> Fingerprinting through a government clearinghouse is typically reserved for employees. Source? Financial services corporations fingerprint both their employees and contractors. I've never seen a distinction in the process for either.

falsestprophet 10y ago
The "contractor" relationship at a financial service company (in the US) is almost always structured as W-2 employee of a staff augmentation firm.
courtneypowell 10y ago
Here's an example of contractors requiring fingerprinting in a highly regulated environment pushing them to 'covered employee' status. The requirement of fingerprinting does not in and of itself make some an 'employee' or vice versa, but there are precedents in Texas, like this example, that could inch Uber even closer to this line. http://www.newcaneyisd.org/cms/lib5/TX01918142/Centricity/Domain/60/Independent%20Contractor%20Guidelines.pdf http://www.newcaneyisd.org/cms/lib5/TX01918142/Centricity/Do...

pbreit 10y ago

That doesn't sound right at all. Contractors are finger-printed, background checked, etc, all the time.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]