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How did apple and Microsoft ridiculously complexify file management. Why is it so hard to add and delete files ? Why do I have to sync with special software?

How did apple and Microsoft ridiculously complexify file management. Why is it so hard to add and delete files ? Why do I have to sync with special software? Why can't the damn thing (zune or ipod) be the disk that it is? All about locking in control.

glhaynes 17y ago
Is this the way most users of these devices feel? I don't get that impression at all. I'd go so far as to say that I bet MP3 players would be significantly less popular today if they all required file management via Explorer/Finder.
- aswanson 17y ago
  Are users really that incompetent? With all the millions of copies of Microsoft word, photoshop, winamp, etc that require knowledge of files and folders can the concept be that inscrutable to everyone? I mean, most people who are under the age of 50 these days are more likely than not to grasp the concept of a file, I'd bet.
  - GHFigs 17y ago
    There is a significant difference between understanding something intellectually and understanding it in such a way that it becomes intuitive or second-nature. That the task of getting the content from one place to another can be done reliably with practically no user intervention is a boon for people who don't find operating a computer intrinsically rewarding, and one of the key reasons the iPod was and is so successful among those people. Being a HN reader, you probably have enough experience with computers that the cognitive load of tasks like file management is basically zero. But for most people, even many people who use computers on a daily basis, the cognitive load involved in managing a library of thousands of files is much higher than that of simply plugging something in. Unless they have a particular motivation to favor the former, the latter is always going to be more appealing.
  - gommm 17y ago
    I've seen a lot of people not understanding the save dialog in Microsoft Word and just saving the file at the default location of the save dialog... So, yes, I do think a lot of people are not very competent with computers.
  - glhaynes 17y ago
    It has nothing to do with competence for many users. I'm perfectly competent with computers and have all of my files organized just the way I want them. As part of that, I use iTunes because it acts as a good "database-style" front-end to my music and all of the operations I want to do with my songs/collections thereof. Manually organizing files in a hierarchical folder structure isn't the end-all be-all of productivity. I can't imagine what I'd gain from manually organizing all my music and I'd lose a lot of functionality.
swilliams 17y ago
The party line is this: Because that was too hard for consumers. For the technically inclined, keeping track of mp3's has been relatively simple. For everyone else it is hard. Songs get skewed across the file system, and some people simply do not understand the process of attaching a USB device and dragging songs onto it. iTunes and Zune make it much easier for the average consumer to manage a library of music.
- freetard 17y ago
  > iTunes and Zune make it much easier for the average consumer to manage a library of music. Tell that to my dad and sister who deleted their whole collection of mp3s thanks to "iTunes making it much easier".
dmnd 17y ago
Playlists and metadata are just a better abstraction than a hierarchy of directories and files for music. Why should anyone care where the data is stored when they just want to hear a playlist? Of course, control is the reason Apple/MS don't also allow access to the filesystem on these devices.
- aswanson 17y ago
  Playlists and metadata aren't a better abstraction for me. When I delete a song, I want it gone. Period. I don't want to be synchronized to your buggy client code. If I attach my player to a Linux box, dammit, why can't I just move files and podcasts back and forth like any computerized device with storage and a sane design can? Why? Sansa may be an also-ran in this game but dammit, you could do those things.
DenisM 17y ago
sync != copy The latter gives you control, the former "just works" (usually).

glhaynes 17y ago

Is this the way most users of these devices feel? I don't get that impression at all. I'd go so far as to say that I bet MP3 players would be significantly less popular today if they all required file management via Explorer/Finder.

aswanson 17y ago
Are users really that incompetent? With all the millions of copies of Microsoft word, photoshop, winamp, etc that require knowledge of files and folders can the concept be that inscrutable to everyone? I mean, most people who are under the age of 50 these days are more likely than not to grasp the concept of a file, I'd bet.
- GHFigs 17y ago
  There is a significant difference between understanding something intellectually and understanding it in such a way that it becomes intuitive or second-nature. That the task of getting the content from one place to another can be done reliably with practically no user intervention is a boon for people who don't find operating a computer intrinsically rewarding, and one of the key reasons the iPod was and is so successful among those people. Being a HN reader, you probably have enough experience with computers that the cognitive load of tasks like file management is basically zero. But for most people, even many people who use computers on a daily basis, the cognitive load involved in managing a library of thousands of files is much higher than that of simply plugging something in. Unless they have a particular motivation to favor the former, the latter is always going to be more appealing.
- gommm 17y ago
  I've seen a lot of people not understanding the save dialog in Microsoft Word and just saving the file at the default location of the save dialog... So, yes, I do think a lot of people are not very competent with computers.
- glhaynes 17y ago
  It has nothing to do with competence for many users. I'm perfectly competent with computers and have all of my files organized just the way I want them. As part of that, I use iTunes because it acts as a good "database-style" front-end to my music and all of the operations I want to do with my songs/collections thereof. Manually organizing files in a hierarchical folder structure isn't the end-all be-all of productivity. I can't imagine what I'd gain from manually organizing all my music and I'd lose a lot of functionality.

swilliams 17y ago

The party line is this: Because that was too hard for consumers. For the technically inclined, keeping track of mp3's has been relatively simple. For everyone else it is hard. Songs get skewed across the file system, and some people simply do not understand the process of attaching a USB device and dragging songs onto it. iTunes and Zune make it much easier for the average consumer to manage a library of music.

freetard 17y ago
> iTunes and Zune make it much easier for the average consumer to manage a library of music. Tell that to my dad and sister who deleted their whole collection of mp3s thanks to "iTunes making it much easier".

dmnd 17y ago

Playlists and metadata are just a better abstraction than a hierarchy of directories and files for music. Why should anyone care where the data is stored when they just want to hear a playlist? Of course, control is the reason Apple/MS don't also allow access to the filesystem on these devices.

aswanson 17y ago
Playlists and metadata aren't a better abstraction for me. When I delete a song, I want it gone. Period. I don't want to be synchronized to your buggy client code. If I attach my player to a Linux box, dammit, why can't I just move files and podcasts back and forth like any computerized device with storage and a sane design can? Why? Sansa may be an also-ran in this game but dammit, you could do those things.

DenisM 17y ago

sync != copy The latter gives you control, the former "just works" (usually).