6 ms·

Exactly this. As I was reading the article I hoped to find this exact point in the HN comments. The fault lies in the bad software. It could have been the inde

Exactly this. As I was reading the article I hoped to find this exact point in the HN comments. The fault lies in the bad software. It could have been the indexing service, online defrag, automatic updates, or any of the other various background processes windows runs. If it is critical software, it should be designed in a way to not fail when something non-critical malfunctions, and even the critical pieces should be built with redundancy.

brians 10y ago
There are lots of faults. The software failed. The process that directed a helpdesk tech to install AV was a failure of some manager. The decision to engineer systems and networks in a way such that AV seemed like a good idea was a failure of an architect.
- jevinskie 10y ago
  In my opinion, the software failed because the entire system (software, hardware, and humanware) failed to implement, holistically, a safety critical system. You simply cannot ignore the system as a whole. I'd wager we are in violent agreement. :)
- dTal 10y ago
  >The decision to engineer systems and networks in a way such that AV seemed like a good idea was a failure of an architect. As ever, a relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/463/ https://xkcd.com/463/
scruple 10y ago
I work for a medical devices company and I just want to say: We, specifically a few of us on the engineering staff, bring this sort of shit up constantly. I go hoarse having the same conversations over and over and over again about robustness in the face of failure, resiliency, redundancy, etc... The truth is that we're beholden to a board and an executive management team that, quite simply, doesn't give a fuck about our problems. I'm not trying to excuse the company in the article or the company that I work for. And I do not work for the company in the article. I just wanted to point out that I do see how this can happen very easily and repeatedly.
- sathackr 10y ago
  I'm with you...I can see exactly how this can happen. Unfortunately the only thing that can solve the apathetic board and executive management problem(who only see dollar signs) is the actuality, or realistic possibility, of significant financial loss, or loss of their personal freedom(prison) due to the negligence of the system. And a $10 Mil fine for a fault in something that you make $100 Mil off of is not significant. That's $90 Mil profit in their eyes. And they probably get to write it off. Even more unfortunate, is that, in the situation that this happens, the "engineers responsible" will be fired, and the executives will resign with a nice golden parachute, and go on to do the same thing somewhere else. But then you have the company that does do it right, spend the time, and the money to make a truly redundant, fault-tolerant system. But, they come in at a price point 20% higher than their competitor, who doesn't. Which company survives and which doesn't? Sad, but, unfortunately the way it is. I don't know a practical solution either.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    > get to write it off A fine being tax deductible does not mean zero cost to the company, it means the profit is reduced before taxes are computed, i.e. the actual cost is reduced by the marginal tax rate. A tax credit means zero cost.
  - scruple 10y ago
    I've thought about this a lot. I've had private conversations with the CEO which lead me to believe that their apathy is a, if not the, primary driver in this situation, at least within the company. Ultimately, they are the single individual who can force these changes in the departments. As things stand today, as far as I can tell, the CEO and the rest of the executive team got theirs and that's that. Anything extra is just that, extra. We've been close to undergoing "major" scrutiny (as it was sold to me, it was A Big Deal) from the FDA before. I, personally, just a lowly and underpaid engineer, have saved executive staff from having to sign their names on that noose. I had a manager once who seemed to want to push it that far, to stand idle-by while the walls fell down around us. I, unknowingly at the time, prevented it from happening because I was trying to help our customers. I don't regret that decision, actual patients shouldn't have to suffer because of a management teams ineptitude. I do think about it often, though. I understand this is nebulous, and I'm sorry for that. This is a reality, though. I guess that's the thing that really gets me, the FDA. We sell FDA approved devices. Where the fuck is the FDA? We send them paperwork and they are happy. I can only form the opinion that they, the FDA, are ill prepared to handle this situation; The actual situation, the "the medical devices industry is a fucking train wreck waiting to happen" situation, and especially so they are ill prepared to handle it at scale. Audits are cursory and almost as a rule non-technical. I suppose it'll take a Toyota-level incident to bring change about.

brians 10y ago

There are lots of faults. The software failed. The process that directed a helpdesk tech to install AV was a failure of some manager. The decision to engineer systems and networks in a way such that AV seemed like a good idea was a failure of an architect.

jevinskie 10y ago
In my opinion, the software failed because the entire system (software, hardware, and humanware) failed to implement, holistically, a safety critical system. You simply cannot ignore the system as a whole. I'd wager we are in violent agreement. :)
dTal 10y ago
>The decision to engineer systems and networks in a way such that AV seemed like a good idea was a failure of an architect. As ever, a relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/463/ https://xkcd.com/463/

scruple 10y ago

I work for a medical devices company and I just want to say: We, specifically a few of us on the engineering staff, bring this sort of shit up constantly. I go hoarse having the same conversations over and over and over again about robustness in the face of failure, resiliency, redundancy, etc... The truth is that we're beholden to a board and an executive management team that, quite simply, doesn't give a fuck about our problems. I'm not trying to excuse the company in the article or the company that I work for. And I do not work for the company in the article. I just wanted to point out that I do see how this can happen very easily and repeatedly.

sathackr 10y ago
I'm with you...I can see exactly how this can happen. Unfortunately the only thing that can solve the apathetic board and executive management problem(who only see dollar signs) is the actuality, or realistic possibility, of significant financial loss, or loss of their personal freedom(prison) due to the negligence of the system. And a $10 Mil fine for a fault in something that you make $100 Mil off of is not significant. That's $90 Mil profit in their eyes. And they probably get to write it off. Even more unfortunate, is that, in the situation that this happens, the "engineers responsible" will be fired, and the executives will resign with a nice golden parachute, and go on to do the same thing somewhere else. But then you have the company that does do it right, spend the time, and the money to make a truly redundant, fault-tolerant system. But, they come in at a price point 20% higher than their competitor, who doesn't. Which company survives and which doesn't? Sad, but, unfortunately the way it is. I don't know a practical solution either.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  > get to write it off A fine being tax deductible does not mean zero cost to the company, it means the profit is reduced before taxes are computed, i.e. the actual cost is reduced by the marginal tax rate. A tax credit means zero cost.
- scruple 10y ago
  I've thought about this a lot. I've had private conversations with the CEO which lead me to believe that their apathy is a, if not the, primary driver in this situation, at least within the company. Ultimately, they are the single individual who can force these changes in the departments. As things stand today, as far as I can tell, the CEO and the rest of the executive team got theirs and that's that. Anything extra is just that, extra. We've been close to undergoing "major" scrutiny (as it was sold to me, it was A Big Deal) from the FDA before. I, personally, just a lowly and underpaid engineer, have saved executive staff from having to sign their names on that noose. I had a manager once who seemed to want to push it that far, to stand idle-by while the walls fell down around us. I, unknowingly at the time, prevented it from happening because I was trying to help our customers. I don't regret that decision, actual patients shouldn't have to suffer because of a management teams ineptitude. I do think about it often, though. I understand this is nebulous, and I'm sorry for that. This is a reality, though. I guess that's the thing that really gets me, the FDA. We sell FDA approved devices. Where the fuck is the FDA? We send them paperwork and they are happy. I can only form the opinion that they, the FDA, are ill prepared to handle this situation; The actual situation, the "the medical devices industry is a fucking train wreck waiting to happen" situation, and especially so they are ill prepared to handle it at scale. Audits are cursory and almost as a rule non-technical. I suppose it'll take a Toyota-level incident to bring change about.