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That actually is anecdotal evidence. Anyway, the Model S was explicitly the stepping stone project to get to the Model 3 (i.e. Musk stated this). They've proba

by abalone 11y ago

That actually is anecdotal evidence. Anyway, the Model S was explicitly the stepping stone project to get to the Model 3 (i.e. Musk stated this). They've probably learned a lot.

dragontamer 11y ago
> That actually is anecdotal evidence. If it happened ONCE its anecdotal evidence. If it happens repeatedly to different reporters around the world? That's a statistic. The Model S drive unit is not reliable. Period. It doesn't matter how "simple" an electric motor theoretically is, in practice, the Model S motor has clear drive unit issues. > Anyway, the Model S was explicitly the stepping stone project to get to the Model 3 (i.e. Musk stated this). They've probably learned a lot. I thought the "Roadster" was when they were supposed to get all of these issues figured out. The Model 3 has to be built in a year in capacities of (wtf?) 500,000 / year by 2018 or something. There's no room for experimentation here. Elon Musk is ramping up production extremely fast and has set stunningly high expectations. --------- Now, don't get me wrong, I think Tesla is a great company with a great vision. And that Musk is doing his best. But what I'm trying to say is that this company's balance sheet, and reliability record with their cars is causing me some concern at this point. I would like it if Tesla could succeed, but I'm not going to hold back on criticism just because I like their mission.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- baddox 11y ago
  No, it's still anecdotal evidence unless you actually have a meaningful statistic gathered through scientific inquiry. If you have just heard several people complain about failures, that's anecdotal evidence. After all, that is precisely the definition of "anecdotal evidence."
  - dragontamer 11y ago
    You really don't know, do you? http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance/ http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt... > As part of our Annual Auto Reliability Survey, we received about 1,400 survey responses from Model S owners who chronicled an array of detailed and complicated maladies. I'm not kidding when I'm saying this "isn't anecdotal" anymore. Over a THOUSAND reports have come in, and the consensus is that Tesla is NOT reliable.
- pbreit 11y ago
  Tesla reliability not unlike other performance vehicles that are version 3, 4 or 20. That tesla has achieved what it has on v1 is amazing. Consumer Reports: "The Tesla wasn’t the only high-performance vehicle that fell below average in reliability. Others include the BMW X5 and 5 Series, and the Chevrolet Corvette."
  - dragontamer 11y ago
    Yes. Lets compare Tesla with the worst cars on the market in terms of reliability. And then demonstrate that other cars can have problems too. Or you know, as a smart consumer, I'll be looking at a workhorse car like a Honda Accord, Ford Focus, Toyota Camry, etc. etc. and not have to worry about reliability issues. Or if I'm actually going to buy on Luxury + reliability: the highly reliable Lexus ES looks like a good pick at half the price of a Tesla.
    - pbreit 11y ago
      I'd say the German luxury brands are the most appropriate comparisons.
      - dragontamer 11y ago
        Sure. But you don't get to pick the least reliable model of the NINE lines of SEDANS that BMW makes, and then decide that its a fair comparison. Tesla has two lines of cars right now, and only a third one planned. Their entire focus is supposed to be on the reliability and features of these two lines they're making.
- NotSammyHagar 11y ago
  Tesla's are generally reliably. I bought an original one in 2012, then I upgraded to AWD when that came out. Never had a problem other than "slight amount of moisture in my tail light" which they fixed. There have been a number of reporters who appear to have an anti-tesla bias, notable the NY Times report Broder. His name has become an adjective ("That guy brodered you"). They are physical objects, they can fail of course, but generally they are very reliable, and in my experience owning them over 4 years, have been without issue.
  - dragontamer 11y ago
    On the other hand, THIS is anecdotal evidence. Look man, I have a Seagate 3TB hard drive. It hasn't failed on me and I bought it damn cheap. But when the statistics come in... https://www.backblaze.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/blog-fail-drives-manufactureX.jpg https://www.backblaze.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/bl... I'm not going to argue against them. Consumer Reports (survey methodology) and Edmund's (single case study) have demonstrated the issue. Tesla cars are NOT reliable, compared to Toyota Camry or Corollas or whatever else is normal out there.

by abalone 11y ago

That actually is anecdotal evidence. Anyway, the Model S was explicitly the stepping stone project to get to the Model 3 (i.e. Musk stated this). They've probably learned a lot.

dragontamer 11y ago

> That actually is anecdotal evidence. If it happened ONCE its anecdotal evidence. If it happens repeatedly to different reporters around the world? That's a statistic. The Model S drive unit is not reliable. Period. It doesn't matter how "simple" an electric motor theoretically is, in practice, the Model S motor has clear drive unit issues. > Anyway, the Model S was explicitly the stepping stone project to get to the Model 3 (i.e. Musk stated this). They've probably learned a lot. I thought the "Roadster" was when they were supposed to get all of these issues figured out. The Model 3 has to be built in a year in capacities of (wtf?) 500,000 / year by 2018 or something. There's no room for experimentation here. Elon Musk is ramping up production extremely fast and has set stunningly high expectations. --------- Now, don't get me wrong, I think Tesla is a great company with a great vision. And that Musk is doing his best. But what I'm trying to say is that this company's balance sheet, and reliability record with their cars is causing me some concern at this point. I would like it if Tesla could succeed, but I'm not going to hold back on criticism just because I like their mission.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
baddox 11y ago
No, it's still anecdotal evidence unless you actually have a meaningful statistic gathered through scientific inquiry. If you have just heard several people complain about failures, that's anecdotal evidence. After all, that is precisely the definition of "anecdotal evidence."
- dragontamer 11y ago
  You really don't know, do you? http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance/ http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt... > As part of our Annual Auto Reliability Survey, we received about 1,400 survey responses from Model S owners who chronicled an array of detailed and complicated maladies. I'm not kidding when I'm saying this "isn't anecdotal" anymore. Over a THOUSAND reports have come in, and the consensus is that Tesla is NOT reliable.
pbreit 11y ago
Tesla reliability not unlike other performance vehicles that are version 3, 4 or 20. That tesla has achieved what it has on v1 is amazing. Consumer Reports: "The Tesla wasn’t the only high-performance vehicle that fell below average in reliability. Others include the BMW X5 and 5 Series, and the Chevrolet Corvette."
- dragontamer 11y ago
  Yes. Lets compare Tesla with the worst cars on the market in terms of reliability. And then demonstrate that other cars can have problems too. Or you know, as a smart consumer, I'll be looking at a workhorse car like a Honda Accord, Ford Focus, Toyota Camry, etc. etc. and not have to worry about reliability issues. Or if I'm actually going to buy on Luxury + reliability: the highly reliable Lexus ES looks like a good pick at half the price of a Tesla.
  - pbreit 11y ago
    I'd say the German luxury brands are the most appropriate comparisons.
    - dragontamer 11y ago
      Sure. But you don't get to pick the least reliable model of the NINE lines of SEDANS that BMW makes, and then decide that its a fair comparison. Tesla has two lines of cars right now, and only a third one planned. Their entire focus is supposed to be on the reliability and features of these two lines they're making.
NotSammyHagar 11y ago
Tesla's are generally reliably. I bought an original one in 2012, then I upgraded to AWD when that came out. Never had a problem other than "slight amount of moisture in my tail light" which they fixed. There have been a number of reporters who appear to have an anti-tesla bias, notable the NY Times report Broder. His name has become an adjective ("That guy brodered you"). They are physical objects, they can fail of course, but generally they are very reliable, and in my experience owning them over 4 years, have been without issue.
- dragontamer 11y ago
  On the other hand, THIS is anecdotal evidence. Look man, I have a Seagate 3TB hard drive. It hasn't failed on me and I bought it damn cheap. But when the statistics come in... https://www.backblaze.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/blog-fail-drives-manufactureX.jpg https://www.backblaze.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/bl... I'm not going to argue against them. Consumer Reports (survey methodology) and Edmund's (single case study) have demonstrated the issue. Tesla cars are NOT reliable, compared to Toyota Camry or Corollas or whatever else is normal out there.