7 ms·

This is completely anecdotal, but when I was back in the Middle East, tests essentially were games/competitions. Everyone knew everyone else's scores and they w

by hasenj 10y ago

This is completely anecdotal, but when I was back in the Middle East, tests essentially were games/competitions. Everyone knew everyone else's scores and they were often announced out loud as the results are handed back. Students who consistently get high scores are looked up to and respected. Your academic performance contributed significantly to your social standing in the classroom. Then I came to Canada and this notion was completely absent. It was one of the many culture shocks. Your grades don't seem to matter that much. The fact that in the media, at least American disney shows, "nerd" is used a pejorative against people who do well academically, was completely puzzling to me (and actually it still is).

xamuel 10y ago
The fact that "nerd" is pejorative is linked to the way grades aren't read aloud. The "nerd" pejorative isn't about doing well academically, it's more about bragging and obsessing. It's about making academic performance part of your identity. That's what people think is uncool. It's not like the quarterback loses points if he happens to be smart. He just shouldn't flaunt it or obsess about it.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Hm Im an American (and a Nerd) and that doesn't sound at all right to me. The N word is used to denigrate anyone who does well academically. Its used to shore up self-image for those that don't do well I imagine - "Sure Joe is great at this subject but that's Nerdy so Ha! I'm superior to him" There was never any need to brag, to be called a Nerd. Just score well, and the bullies would whisper (and yell in the hall) Nerd!
  - meddlepal 10y ago
    How did the bullies know Joe did well if he didn't brag?
    - karlkeefer 10y ago
      Praise from teachers. Other visible signals, like reading voluntarily, showing interest in challenging work, etc. I agree that bragging isn't really part of being a nerd.
    - dragontamer 10y ago
      You go to a school where the grades are read out loud or published in some form. This isn't unique to the Middle East. Its often no secret who the valedictorian of your class will be in my experience (American school)... even if the grades weren't revealed. In any case, "Nerd" in my experience means something closer to the hobbies you persue. "Geeks" play video games and academically do good in "computer stuff" and music. "Nerds" pursue theater, LARP, and table-top RPGs (Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder, World of Darkness, etc.) The intersection of "Nerds" and "Geeks" is anime, comic book heroes, and sci-fi.
      - bobwaycott 10y ago
        > The intersection of "Nerds" and "Geeks" is anime, comic book heroes, and sci-fi. Don't forget diminished desirability by those in whom one has a romantic interest (at least until well after adolescence). :)
    - CapitalistCartr 10y ago
      Teachers talk in class when they shouldn't. "Hey Teacher, how much is the curve on this test gonna be?" "Well, it won't be anything because John got a 100." [Angry glares at John]
      - fullshark 10y ago
        This idea contradicts the OPs' theory.
        CapitalistCartr 10y ago
        I don't think so. If the teacher announces everyone's grade formally, it makes it clear grade is important. If the teacher only points out the"Special" student that always does the best in every class, it becomes a miserable experience. And I assure you this part isn't an idea.
  - eplanit 10y ago
    Actually this is the "dork" vs. "nerd" distinction. People now self-identify as "nerd" as self-aggrandizing (annoying actual nerds[1]). Being called a Dork has always been an insult and pejorative. In my understanding, a Dork is a Nerd, but a Nerd is not necessarily a Dork -- unless so proclaimed by one or more so-called bullies. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJyMT4ZVQEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJyMT4ZVQEc
    - hobs 10y ago
      That would be a distinction lost on anyone who isnt prone to over analyzing the situation, not a hallmark of schoolyard bullies.
  - sehr 10y ago
    That might have been true 10,20 years ago. Don't know about now
  - paavokoya 10y ago
    When did HN become a place for trite generalizations? Do people really believe that every case of nerd shaming is the same? We can go on all day about school-teasing name-calling.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
WalterSear 10y ago
You describe the exact opposite of a game - you describe a competition.
- hasenj 10y ago
  How's a competition not a game?
  - WalterSear 10y ago
    A game needs to have no consequences outside the game. If there are consequences beyond the scope of the game, people aren't playing, they are seeking those other consequences, and the game is no longer strictly a game. > Everyone knew everyone else's scores and they were often announced out loud as the results are handed back. Students who consistently get high scores are looked up to and respected. Your academic performance contributed significantly to your social standing in the classroom. All of which, we know from empirical evidence, replace intrinsic motivations of play.
    - paavokoya 10y ago
      >If there are consequences beyond the scope of the game, people aren't playing Ah like the NBA or NFL? Those big multi-million dollar contracts and random drug tests are just part of the game.
      - WalterSear 10y ago
        You are playing semantics instead of trying to understand what I'm saying.
        hasenj 10y ago
        What you are saying is semantics.
        WalterSear 10y ago
ajuc 10y ago
I was a kid in post-communist Poland in 90s, and the concept of nerd was absent as well. Being good at math etc was not a problem to your social life (in fact it was sth you could brag about, just not too openly because that's uncool too). Also there was almost no "jocks" (there were some sport competitions but no cheerleaders, and nothing as important culturally as it is in USA, also teams weren't persistent between classes and there were almost none inter-school sport events). Grades were public as well (or at least - nobody tried to hide them so teachers would just pin a list with results from an exam on the board). Competition was seen as sth natural (at the time unemployment was 20% and kids were told that you have to be good or you will essentially be a hobo). On the other hand you were supposed to pretend you didn't had to study a lot, because kids that study instead of playing were "kujon"s = boring, lame bookworms. It was cool to be smart without working for it. Also cheating had no stigma attached, but telling any authority about any misbehaving was the ultimate social suicide. This obviously included telling teachers that other kids were cheating. This was probably because 50 years of paid spying of citizens on each other by abusive government. Even now whistleblowing in general is hard because of that social stigma. Nerd and geek concept was introduced later through movies and internet and in mid 00s it was already established, but still not a negative stereotype (but that may be because I changed environment to CS-related in the meantime and ~ everybody was a nerd/geek/whatever).
- hasenj 10y ago
  > On the other hand you were supposed to pretend you didn't had to study a lot, because kids that study instead of playing were "kujon"s = boring, lame bookworms. It was cool to be smart without working for it. Yea, where I grew up there was also a term like "bookworm" which was used pejoratively, but it wasn't cause for social rejection, it was merely one of the myriad of ways that kids tease each other. It's not as though the "bookworm" was humiliated or bullied for being so. At least, that's how I remember it.

by hasenj 10y ago

xamuel 10y ago

The fact that "nerd" is pejorative is linked to the way grades aren't read aloud. The "nerd" pejorative isn't about doing well academically, it's more about bragging and obsessing. It's about making academic performance part of your identity. That's what people think is uncool. It's not like the quarterback loses points if he happens to be smart. He just shouldn't flaunt it or obsess about it.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Hm Im an American (and a Nerd) and that doesn't sound at all right to me. The N word is used to denigrate anyone who does well academically. Its used to shore up self-image for those that don't do well I imagine - "Sure Joe is great at this subject but that's Nerdy so Ha! I'm superior to him" There was never any need to brag, to be called a Nerd. Just score well, and the bullies would whisper (and yell in the hall) Nerd!
- meddlepal 10y ago
  How did the bullies know Joe did well if he didn't brag?
  - karlkeefer 10y ago
    Praise from teachers. Other visible signals, like reading voluntarily, showing interest in challenging work, etc. I agree that bragging isn't really part of being a nerd.
  - dragontamer 10y ago
    You go to a school where the grades are read out loud or published in some form. This isn't unique to the Middle East. Its often no secret who the valedictorian of your class will be in my experience (American school)... even if the grades weren't revealed. In any case, "Nerd" in my experience means something closer to the hobbies you persue. "Geeks" play video games and academically do good in "computer stuff" and music. "Nerds" pursue theater, LARP, and table-top RPGs (Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder, World of Darkness, etc.) The intersection of "Nerds" and "Geeks" is anime, comic book heroes, and sci-fi.
    - bobwaycott 10y ago
      > The intersection of "Nerds" and "Geeks" is anime, comic book heroes, and sci-fi. Don't forget diminished desirability by those in whom one has a romantic interest (at least until well after adolescence). :)
  - CapitalistCartr 10y ago
    Teachers talk in class when they shouldn't. "Hey Teacher, how much is the curve on this test gonna be?" "Well, it won't be anything because John got a 100." [Angry glares at John]
    - fullshark 10y ago
      This idea contradicts the OPs' theory.
      - CapitalistCartr 10y ago
        I don't think so. If the teacher announces everyone's grade formally, it makes it clear grade is important. If the teacher only points out the"Special" student that always does the best in every class, it becomes a miserable experience. And I assure you this part isn't an idea.
- eplanit 10y ago
  Actually this is the "dork" vs. "nerd" distinction. People now self-identify as "nerd" as self-aggrandizing (annoying actual nerds[1]). Being called a Dork has always been an insult and pejorative. In my understanding, a Dork is a Nerd, but a Nerd is not necessarily a Dork -- unless so proclaimed by one or more so-called bullies. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJyMT4ZVQEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJyMT4ZVQEc
  - hobs 10y ago
    That would be a distinction lost on anyone who isnt prone to over analyzing the situation, not a hallmark of schoolyard bullies.
- sehr 10y ago
  That might have been true 10,20 years ago. Don't know about now
- paavokoya 10y ago
  When did HN become a place for trite generalizations? Do people really believe that every case of nerd shaming is the same? We can go on all day about school-teasing name-calling.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

WalterSear 10y ago

You describe the exact opposite of a game - you describe a competition.

hasenj 10y ago
How's a competition not a game?
- WalterSear 10y ago
  A game needs to have no consequences outside the game. If there are consequences beyond the scope of the game, people aren't playing, they are seeking those other consequences, and the game is no longer strictly a game. > Everyone knew everyone else's scores and they were often announced out loud as the results are handed back. Students who consistently get high scores are looked up to and respected. Your academic performance contributed significantly to your social standing in the classroom. All of which, we know from empirical evidence, replace intrinsic motivations of play.
  - paavokoya 10y ago
    >If there are consequences beyond the scope of the game, people aren't playing Ah like the NBA or NFL? Those big multi-million dollar contracts and random drug tests are just part of the game.
    - WalterSear 10y ago
      You are playing semantics instead of trying to understand what I'm saying.
      - hasenj 10y ago
        What you are saying is semantics.
        WalterSear 10y ago

ajuc 10y ago

I was a kid in post-communist Poland in 90s, and the concept of nerd was absent as well. Being good at math etc was not a problem to your social life (in fact it was sth you could brag about, just not too openly because that's uncool too). Also there was almost no "jocks" (there were some sport competitions but no cheerleaders, and nothing as important culturally as it is in USA, also teams weren't persistent between classes and there were almost none inter-school sport events). Grades were public as well (or at least - nobody tried to hide them so teachers would just pin a list with results from an exam on the board). Competition was seen as sth natural (at the time unemployment was 20% and kids were told that you have to be good or you will essentially be a hobo). On the other hand you were supposed to pretend you didn't had to study a lot, because kids that study instead of playing were "kujon"s = boring, lame bookworms. It was cool to be smart without working for it. Also cheating had no stigma attached, but telling any authority about any misbehaving was the ultimate social suicide. This obviously included telling teachers that other kids were cheating. This was probably because 50 years of paid spying of citizens on each other by abusive government. Even now whistleblowing in general is hard because of that social stigma. Nerd and geek concept was introduced later through movies and internet and in mid 00s it was already established, but still not a negative stereotype (but that may be because I changed environment to CS-related in the meantime and ~ everybody was a nerd/geek/whatever).

hasenj 10y ago
> On the other hand you were supposed to pretend you didn't had to study a lot, because kids that study instead of playing were "kujon"s = boring, lame bookworms. It was cool to be smart without working for it. Yea, where I grew up there was also a term like "bookworm" which was used pejoratively, but it wasn't cause for social rejection, it was merely one of the myriad of ways that kids tease each other. It's not as though the "bookworm" was humiliated or bullied for being so. At least, that's how I remember it.