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I upvoted your comment not because I agree with it, but because yours is an important voice to be participating in the discussion, and I'm glad you're here. And

by nkoren 10y ago

I upvoted your comment not because I agree with it, but because yours is an important voice to be participating in the discussion, and I'm glad you're here. And actually, I do agree with everything you say about how NGO money distorts the economy. But Basic Income is different, and I urge you to try to understand those differences. Traditional NGO/charity consists of giving money/stuff/services to the poor. The problem with this is that if you are a poor person who depends on that money/stuff/services, and you manage to find a job to get yourself out of poverty, then the money/stuff/services you've been depending on will no longer be available to you. This is a problem, because those NGOs are much more stable then your marginal getting-out-of-poverty job. So the person in poverty is faced with a choice: do you trade the certainty of the NGO hand-outs for the hard work and the increased uncertainty that comes with a paying job? The rational decision, in this case, is to stay poor and continue to rely on hand-outs. This is how people get into the "business of being poor". They're not being stupid. They're making a rational choice based on the fact that they've been given a reason not to work. But Basic Income is different, as I say -- because it is unconditional. It should never be withdrawn. If you are poor, you get the basic income. If you get a job, you still get the basic income. So there is no downside whatsoever to getting a job. This is a profound difference from traditional NGO hand-outs. In every place where an unconditional Basic Income has been experimented with, it has resulted in an (often quite significant) net increase in economic productivity. That is very different from traditional NGO hand-outs. So please don't think that they're the same thing. I'd urge you to research the subject more deeply.

jkraker 10y ago
My take: If institution of a basic income is not accompanied by development efforts within a population to create meaningful opportunities to work, it's not really doing what the population really needs. I don't see a difference between charity and basic income in an environment where extensive economic development is really what is needed. If I don't have an opportunity to work even if I want to work, what difference does it make what the money that is given to me is called?
- nkoren 10y ago
  It's simple: a lot of the actual needed "work" in impoverished communities is informal. These communities are quite good at self-organising -- but barter can only get you so far. What cash grants give you is better liquidity for conducting mutually-beneficial exchanges of goods and services locally -- as well as the means of acquiring external resources for facilitating those transactions. In this context, most low-level jobs are self-creating. Higher-level jobs require a more educated populace -- but it's been shown that when a Basic Income is given, people will naturally seek out greater education -- either travelling to find it remotely, or paying for education services locally. The jobs can't be "brought in" before the populace has the education to fulfil them. One thing which Basic Income doesn't address, however, is infrastructure creation (or at least infrastructure which can't be sensibly paid for by end-user fees). So there's definitely still a need to address that, Basic Income or no. But for various reasons that should really be done by the government, rather than an NGO.

by nkoren 10y ago

jkraker 10y ago

My take: If institution of a basic income is not accompanied by development efforts within a population to create meaningful opportunities to work, it's not really doing what the population really needs. I don't see a difference between charity and basic income in an environment where extensive economic development is really what is needed. If I don't have an opportunity to work even if I want to work, what difference does it make what the money that is given to me is called?

nkoren 10y ago
It's simple: a lot of the actual needed "work" in impoverished communities is informal. These communities are quite good at self-organising -- but barter can only get you so far. What cash grants give you is better liquidity for conducting mutually-beneficial exchanges of goods and services locally -- as well as the means of acquiring external resources for facilitating those transactions. In this context, most low-level jobs are self-creating. Higher-level jobs require a more educated populace -- but it's been shown that when a Basic Income is given, people will naturally seek out greater education -- either travelling to find it remotely, or paying for education services locally. The jobs can't be "brought in" before the populace has the education to fulfil them. One thing which Basic Income doesn't address, however, is infrastructure creation (or at least infrastructure which can't be sensibly paid for by end-user fees). So there's definitely still a need to address that, Basic Income or no. But for various reasons that should really be done by the government, rather than an NGO.