6 ms·

Gender discussion is too often framed as male vs. female these days. That's come from 30+ years of flawed output from the social science echo chamber and dogmat

Gender discussion is too often framed as male vs. female these days. That's come from 30+ years of flawed output from the social science echo chamber and dogmatic denial of human nature. It doesn't matter if boys and girls do better under different conditions, they shouldn't be expected to perform equally in this way. What matters is that we understand those unique conditions and help children thrive whatever their gender. It's great to see research like this, especially when boys across the western world are struggling in academic environments that are perhaps favouring ways of learning more suited to girls.

littletimmy 10y ago
You mean whatever their sex? Gender is such a strange term.
- hk__2 10y ago
  Sex is the biology; Gender is the identity. Discrimations are based on gender, not sex. Women are told to wear pink dresses because of how our society see women (female gender), not because they have a vagina (female sex).
  - taneq 10y ago
    > Women are told to wear pink dresses because of how our society see women (female gender), not because they have a vagina (female sex). Really? I'm pretty sure a large part of any discrimination against women is due to their physical sex, not the way they identify.
  - littletimmy 10y ago
    Why does one need a gender identity?
    - mc32 10y ago
      We only need it because we live in groups. If we were all by ourselves we would not need this language (and much other language). Much of language is for signaling.
  - fennecfoxen 10y ago
    Regardless, these factors are in a 1-to-1 relationship for around 99% of schoolchildren in the third grade "aged 9 years old on average" including, presumably, every single child studied in this study. Discussion of the specific differences, or of the other cases, might have substantial merit... but seem less than productive on this particular occasion as the topic is at best only tangentially related.
    - hk__2 10y ago
      Sure; I was only explaining the difference to OP who seems to think gender and sex are two words for the same thing.
  - lr4444lr 10y ago
    > Sex is the biology; Gender is the identity That's only a very recent distinction, and still a contentious one. According to Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender) and the OED (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/gender http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/gend...), it's far from clear.
    - zajd 10y ago
      Based on what the dictionary says? The idea that gender and sex mean two different things isn't contentious amongst the people who study the phenomenon academically.
      - littletimmy 10y ago
        Well, gender studies is not very scientific. It is more "theorizing", in the sense of writing obscurantist explanations for everyday phenomenon.
        zajd 10y ago
        Do you feel the same way about all social sciences? Does "materialism" only mean valuing material things to you or do you respect the Philosophical definition? Honestly it's a lot of handwaving to excuse ignorance (what not knowing the difference between the two terms is)
        SolaceQuantum 10y ago
        The difference in gender and sex also comes up in biology and neuroscience...
      - wyager 10y ago
        Every generation of soft social "scientists" (I use scare quotes because they don't usually use the scientific method. When I say "soft" social scientists I mean e.g. Gender studies people as opposed to demographers.) tends to disagree with the previous generation on huge fundamental tenets for mostly arbitrary reasons. It is wise to take any dictionary-defying claims from these fields with a large grain of salt, because there's a substantial chance that such a claim is made for social or political (but not scientific) reasons.
  - devishard 10y ago
    > Sex is the biology; Gender is the identity. What evidence do you have that identity doesn't originate in biology? I'm well-aware of the existence of transpeople, but I'm not ready to conclude that gender dysphoria doesn't originate in biology. There's more to a person's biology than their genitalia.
- kaitai 10y ago
  When investigating the intersection of unconscious attitudes (often shaped by culture) and performance, gender is more relevant than sex. It's not whether you have this equipment or that but what groups you are perceived to belong to and what groups you see yourself as belonging to. In some cultures there are third genders with different cultural expectations: the Hijra in India, Kathoey in Thailand, some other groups in Indonesia. One would expect different stereotypes about their math, science, and reading talents, so it would probably be quite interesting to study stereotype threat there. That's not the case in this French study (probably) but there's no need to collapse the terminology artificially. That's the crazy thing about stereotype threat and related psychological phenomena: you can manipulate the same people to perform better or worse simply by manipulating their perception of the situation. Thus the effect really can't be about biological sex. Check out reducingstereotypethreat.org for a comprehensive rundown of studies.
  - golemotron 10y ago
    Not really. Boys have about 14 to 17 times the amount of serum testosterone as girls and that does affect their felt incentives for things like competition. Culture can mute this but at great cost to boy's and men's health. The idea that gender is separate from biological sex is very recent. When you examine its origin you find that it comes from Foucault and Judith Butler. Both were gay. It's unsurprising to me that that idea would come from that lineage. If you are gay you are confronted with a difference between what you feel and what society tells you from a very early age. In general straight people do not have that issue and would never consider drawing that distinction unless the concept is introduced to them.
    - boosting7669 10y ago
      Isn't caitlin Jenner straight?
    - drumdance 10y ago
      Differences in testosterone levels don't really show up until puberty. This study was done on pre-pubescents.

littletimmy 10y ago

You mean whatever their sex? Gender is such a strange term.

hk__2 10y ago
Sex is the biology; Gender is the identity. Discrimations are based on gender, not sex. Women are told to wear pink dresses because of how our society see women (female gender), not because they have a vagina (female sex).
- taneq 10y ago
  > Women are told to wear pink dresses because of how our society see women (female gender), not because they have a vagina (female sex). Really? I'm pretty sure a large part of any discrimination against women is due to their physical sex, not the way they identify.
- littletimmy 10y ago
  Why does one need a gender identity?
  - mc32 10y ago
    We only need it because we live in groups. If we were all by ourselves we would not need this language (and much other language). Much of language is for signaling.
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  Regardless, these factors are in a 1-to-1 relationship for around 99% of schoolchildren in the third grade "aged 9 years old on average" including, presumably, every single child studied in this study. Discussion of the specific differences, or of the other cases, might have substantial merit... but seem less than productive on this particular occasion as the topic is at best only tangentially related.
  - hk__2 10y ago
    Sure; I was only explaining the difference to OP who seems to think gender and sex are two words for the same thing.
- lr4444lr 10y ago
  > Sex is the biology; Gender is the identity That's only a very recent distinction, and still a contentious one. According to Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender) and the OED (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/gender http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/gend...), it's far from clear.
  - zajd 10y ago
    Based on what the dictionary says? The idea that gender and sex mean two different things isn't contentious amongst the people who study the phenomenon academically.
    - littletimmy 10y ago
      Well, gender studies is not very scientific. It is more "theorizing", in the sense of writing obscurantist explanations for everyday phenomenon.
      - zajd 10y ago
        Do you feel the same way about all social sciences? Does "materialism" only mean valuing material things to you or do you respect the Philosophical definition? Honestly it's a lot of handwaving to excuse ignorance (what not knowing the difference between the two terms is)
      - SolaceQuantum 10y ago
        The difference in gender and sex also comes up in biology and neuroscience...
    - wyager 10y ago
      Every generation of soft social "scientists" (I use scare quotes because they don't usually use the scientific method. When I say "soft" social scientists I mean e.g. Gender studies people as opposed to demographers.) tends to disagree with the previous generation on huge fundamental tenets for mostly arbitrary reasons. It is wise to take any dictionary-defying claims from these fields with a large grain of salt, because there's a substantial chance that such a claim is made for social or political (but not scientific) reasons.
- devishard 10y ago
  > Sex is the biology; Gender is the identity. What evidence do you have that identity doesn't originate in biology? I'm well-aware of the existence of transpeople, but I'm not ready to conclude that gender dysphoria doesn't originate in biology. There's more to a person's biology than their genitalia.
kaitai 10y ago
When investigating the intersection of unconscious attitudes (often shaped by culture) and performance, gender is more relevant than sex. It's not whether you have this equipment or that but what groups you are perceived to belong to and what groups you see yourself as belonging to. In some cultures there are third genders with different cultural expectations: the Hijra in India, Kathoey in Thailand, some other groups in Indonesia. One would expect different stereotypes about their math, science, and reading talents, so it would probably be quite interesting to study stereotype threat there. That's not the case in this French study (probably) but there's no need to collapse the terminology artificially. That's the crazy thing about stereotype threat and related psychological phenomena: you can manipulate the same people to perform better or worse simply by manipulating their perception of the situation. Thus the effect really can't be about biological sex. Check out reducingstereotypethreat.org for a comprehensive rundown of studies.
- golemotron 10y ago
  Not really. Boys have about 14 to 17 times the amount of serum testosterone as girls and that does affect their felt incentives for things like competition. Culture can mute this but at great cost to boy's and men's health. The idea that gender is separate from biological sex is very recent. When you examine its origin you find that it comes from Foucault and Judith Butler. Both were gay. It's unsurprising to me that that idea would come from that lineage. If you are gay you are confronted with a difference between what you feel and what society tells you from a very early age. In general straight people do not have that issue and would never consider drawing that distinction unless the concept is introduced to them.
  - boosting7669 10y ago
    Isn't caitlin Jenner straight?
  - drumdance 10y ago
    Differences in testosterone levels don't really show up until puberty. This study was done on pre-pubescents.