5 ms·

IMHO, ++ is not readable. A beginner would think that data[pos++] is the same as data[pos+1] when it's actually, data[pos]; pos = pos + 1;.

fauigerzigerk 10y ago
I don't care what beginners might think. I care about the mental load for professional developers. Beginners can learn.
- kartickv 10y ago
  A beginner should be made to learn something only if they get an advantage out of it in readability or type safety or performance or something else. I don't see that being the case for pre- and post-increment. If anything, I find: i += 1; String name = names[i]; more readable than String name = names[++i]; where I have to pause and remind myself of pre- and post- increment and which one is being used here and mentally translate the code into the above version. Imperative languages already have a way of specifying execution order: it's the order of statements in your file. Let's reuse that rather than making things more complex.
  - felixgallo 10y ago
    In your list of things that beginners must get an advantage out of, you left out functionality and brevity. Hope that helps.
    - kartickv 10y ago
      I don't see a difference in functionality — both code snippets I gave do exactly the same thing. As for brevity, I think clarity is more important. We should optimise for the time it takes to read and understand the code (clarity), not just read (brevity). The best abstractions and programming language features are both brief and clear, like Python's list comprehensions. I find [name.uppercase() for name in names if name.startswith("a")] to be clearer than Java's List<String> uppercaseNames = new ArrayList<>(); for (String name: names) { if (name.startsWith("a")) uppercaseNames.add(name.toUpperCase()); } So, the best programming language features enhance both brevity and clarity. When that's not possible, I'll take slightly longer but clearer code over short but confusing one.
- danneu 10y ago
  I've seen ++i vs i++ cause so many bugs that whenever I see it, I stop to ponder if the author got it right. It's like in Javascript where I stop to check if the author intended for `if (x)` to take the false path if x is "" and 0. It's death by a thousand papercuts for my mental load.
stevetrewick 10y ago
IMHO ++ is trivially readable, but that's only because I happen to be familiar with C/C++'s pre/post increment idiom. An idiom which is well known for causing confusion and bugs, especially - as you say - for devs new to the language. For me the compelling argument for removing them is that they're a Cism and don't fit with the semantics of any of the other operators. Chris Lattner strongly agrees with you and explains his reasons here https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0004-remove-pre-post-inc-decrement.md https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposa...

fauigerzigerk 10y ago

I don't care what beginners might think. I care about the mental load for professional developers. Beginners can learn.

kartickv 10y ago
A beginner should be made to learn something only if they get an advantage out of it in readability or type safety or performance or something else. I don't see that being the case for pre- and post-increment. If anything, I find: i += 1; String name = names[i]; more readable than String name = names[++i]; where I have to pause and remind myself of pre- and post- increment and which one is being used here and mentally translate the code into the above version. Imperative languages already have a way of specifying execution order: it's the order of statements in your file. Let's reuse that rather than making things more complex.
- felixgallo 10y ago
  In your list of things that beginners must get an advantage out of, you left out functionality and brevity. Hope that helps.
  - kartickv 10y ago
    I don't see a difference in functionality — both code snippets I gave do exactly the same thing. As for brevity, I think clarity is more important. We should optimise for the time it takes to read and understand the code (clarity), not just read (brevity). The best abstractions and programming language features are both brief and clear, like Python's list comprehensions. I find [name.uppercase() for name in names if name.startswith("a")] to be clearer than Java's List<String> uppercaseNames = new ArrayList<>(); for (String name: names) { if (name.startsWith("a")) uppercaseNames.add(name.toUpperCase()); } So, the best programming language features enhance both brevity and clarity. When that's not possible, I'll take slightly longer but clearer code over short but confusing one.
danneu 10y ago
I've seen ++i vs i++ cause so many bugs that whenever I see it, I stop to ponder if the author got it right. It's like in Javascript where I stop to check if the author intended for `if (x)` to take the false path if x is "" and 0. It's death by a thousand papercuts for my mental load.

stevetrewick 10y ago

IMHO ++ is trivially readable, but that's only because I happen to be familiar with C/C++'s pre/post increment idiom. An idiom which is well known for causing confusion and bugs, especially - as you say - for devs new to the language. For me the compelling argument for removing them is that they're a Cism and don't fit with the semantics of any of the other operators. Chris Lattner strongly agrees with you and explains his reasons here https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0004-remove-pre-post-inc-decrement.md https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposa...