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For all people that think this is still a issue: it is not: * Arch Linux: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_filesystem_hierarchy https://wiki.archlinux

by m45t3r 10y ago

For all people that think this is still a issue: it is not: * Arch Linux: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_filesystem_hierarchy https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_filesystem_hierarc... * Fedora: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UsrMove https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UsrMove * Debian: https://wiki.debian.org/UsrMerge https://wiki.debian.org/UsrMerge * Ubuntu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/Quantal/UsrMerge https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/Quantal/UsrMer... And this is true for quite a long time. I think the last distro that did /usr merge is Debian and this is already 3 years ago. So I find surprising that people still thinks that this is a issue. The only thing that remains is the difference between bin and sbin that Fedora/Ubuntu/Debian still maintain (Arch Linux simply merged everything). P.S.: of course, there should be still distros that use a split /bin /usr/bin, /lib and /usr/lib, etc. OpenWRT is one of them. However I think the major distros already migrated.

Esau 10y ago
"Note that Arch follows the systemd FHS convention of symlinking" The Systemd convention? What the fuck? Does Systemd have to touch everything??
- dsfyu404ed 10y ago
  Systemd walks into a bar, shoots the owner, proclaims it is the new owner, turns the bar into a casino, adds a hotel, a grocery store and an init system.
  - Hello71 10y ago
    systemd opens a new bar right next to the most popular bar in town, becomes far more popular (possibly due to better advertising), people complain that their beer tastes worse, and when other people tell them to just go to the original bar, they complain that all their friends are at the new bar.
    - cyphar 10y ago
      systemd stopped selling just beer a long time ago. It now sells books, used cars, cement mix and cheap Chinese take away.
    - digi_owl 10y ago
      Also closes the doors on the auto shop next door. Proclaiming you can either go through the bar to get to it, or climb over the barbed wire fence out back to get in. Others instead use abandoned tools from said auto shop to set up a new one across the road, and get daily ridiculed by the systemd patrons for it.
- Jasper_ 10y ago
  The systemd maintainers were one of the first ones to put together a technical proposal and do a lot of the implementation work for the UsrMerge, in a way that was reusable across distros. systemd itself does not depend on being on a UsrMerge'd system, and otherwise, the proposal does not have anything to do with systemd. From https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/ https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseFor... "Note that this page discusses a topic that is actually independent of systemd."
  - JdeBP 10y ago
    You are quoting 2013 doco. systemd has (again) changed since then. As of 2016, the position is that whilst there is still code in some of the program to handle a split /usr, a significant part of the system (in particular Plug and Play device management) now references /usr and depends from it, to the extent that it is already a requirement that /usr be always present: i.e. that it either be on the root volume or be mounted by /init (on the initramfs) before it invokes systemd. * https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2016-February/035801.html https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2016-Fe... Lennart Poettering is indeed now pushing for systemd to impose a similar requirement for /var . * https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2016-February/035749.html https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2016-Fe... * https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2016-February/035803.html https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2016-Fe...
    - Jasper_ 10y ago
      Uh, I don't see how this is related to UsrMerge? You can still have separate /usr/bin and /bin directories, you just need to make sure /usr is mounted and accessible during boot. Requiring /usr be available during boot has long been the case for Linux, even before systemd came along.
    - spc476 10y ago
      So, as Linus controls the kernel, Lennart wants to control userspace?
- digi_owl 10y ago
  Systemd has basically become the enforcement arm of Freedesktop, that in turn is a cover for RH/Fedora running the Linux user space show.
adwf 10y ago
Arch still occasionally has some packages installed to /opt. Annoying as hell, but they expect to be there for some reason. Android-studio was the latest unexpected surprise for me.
- GauntletWizard 10y ago
  Once upon a time, I read the LSB[1] filesystem hierarchy, of which the only thing I consider useful was that non-distro-provided third party software (i.e. anything you'd buy on a disk and install) should live in opt. It didn't make a huge deal of sense then and it still doesn't now, but it sorta provides a way to know which directories can safely be rm -rf'd. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Standard_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Standard_Base
- johnny22 10y ago
  I've seen distros choose /opt for software not built by the maintainers, but simply repackaged in binary form. This would include software like oracle/sun java.
- bretthoerner 10y ago
  fwiw that's from AUR, not Arch official.
JdeBP 10y ago
See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11626765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11626765 for two people recently discussing the actualities of this.
vbernat 10y ago
Debian only enforced the fact that if there is a /usr partition, it should be mounted by the initramfs. Moreover, the advanced partition scheme in debian-installer doesn't propose a separate /usr anymore. /usr can still be a separate partition and the split between /usr and /usr/bin still exists unless you install the usrmerge package.
psydk 10y ago
The Ubuntu document is from 2012 and the merge is not done on 16.04. How can we know if the change is still planned, and when? Is there a roadmap somewhere?
mariuolo 10y ago
> And this is true for quite a long time. I think the last distro that did /usr merge is Debian and this is already 3 years ago. So I find surprising that people still thinks that this is a issue. It hasn't happened on openSUSE yet:/
perfunctory 10y ago
Excuse me my naivety but I don't really understand what you mean by "This is not an issue and hasn't been for quite a long time". When I do ls / on any of my machines I still see /bin /usr/bin and all the rest.
- gqg 10y ago
  They are all symlinked - just different names for exactly the same directory in the file system. If you compare the contents, you will find they are identical. Edit: Nevermind, I am wrong :)
  - tremon 10y ago
    $ ls -1 /bin | wc -l 127 $ ls -1 /usr/bin | wc -l 2271

by m45t3r 10y ago

Esau 10y ago

"Note that Arch follows the systemd FHS convention of symlinking" The Systemd convention? What the fuck? Does Systemd have to touch everything??

dsfyu404ed 10y ago
Systemd walks into a bar, shoots the owner, proclaims it is the new owner, turns the bar into a casino, adds a hotel, a grocery store and an init system.
- Hello71 10y ago
  systemd opens a new bar right next to the most popular bar in town, becomes far more popular (possibly due to better advertising), people complain that their beer tastes worse, and when other people tell them to just go to the original bar, they complain that all their friends are at the new bar.
  - cyphar 10y ago
    systemd stopped selling just beer a long time ago. It now sells books, used cars, cement mix and cheap Chinese take away.
  - digi_owl 10y ago
    Also closes the doors on the auto shop next door. Proclaiming you can either go through the bar to get to it, or climb over the barbed wire fence out back to get in. Others instead use abandoned tools from said auto shop to set up a new one across the road, and get daily ridiculed by the systemd patrons for it.
Jasper_ 10y ago
The systemd maintainers were one of the first ones to put together a technical proposal and do a lot of the implementation work for the UsrMerge, in a way that was reusable across distros. systemd itself does not depend on being on a UsrMerge'd system, and otherwise, the proposal does not have anything to do with systemd. From https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/ https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseFor... "Note that this page discusses a topic that is actually independent of systemd."
- JdeBP 10y ago
  You are quoting 2013 doco. systemd has (again) changed since then. As of 2016, the position is that whilst there is still code in some of the program to handle a split /usr, a significant part of the system (in particular Plug and Play device management) now references /usr and depends from it, to the extent that it is already a requirement that /usr be always present: i.e. that it either be on the root volume or be mounted by /init (on the initramfs) before it invokes systemd. * https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2016-February/035801.html https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2016-Fe... Lennart Poettering is indeed now pushing for systemd to impose a similar requirement for /var . * https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2016-February/035749.html https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2016-Fe... * https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2016-February/035803.html https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2016-Fe...
  - Jasper_ 10y ago
    Uh, I don't see how this is related to UsrMerge? You can still have separate /usr/bin and /bin directories, you just need to make sure /usr is mounted and accessible during boot. Requiring /usr be available during boot has long been the case for Linux, even before systemd came along.
  - spc476 10y ago
    So, as Linus controls the kernel, Lennart wants to control userspace?
digi_owl 10y ago
Systemd has basically become the enforcement arm of Freedesktop, that in turn is a cover for RH/Fedora running the Linux user space show.

adwf 10y ago

Arch still occasionally has some packages installed to /opt. Annoying as hell, but they expect to be there for some reason. Android-studio was the latest unexpected surprise for me.

GauntletWizard 10y ago
Once upon a time, I read the LSB[1] filesystem hierarchy, of which the only thing I consider useful was that non-distro-provided third party software (i.e. anything you'd buy on a disk and install) should live in opt. It didn't make a huge deal of sense then and it still doesn't now, but it sorta provides a way to know which directories can safely be rm -rf'd. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Standard_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Standard_Base
johnny22 10y ago
I've seen distros choose /opt for software not built by the maintainers, but simply repackaged in binary form. This would include software like oracle/sun java.
bretthoerner 10y ago
fwiw that's from AUR, not Arch official.

JdeBP 10y ago

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11626765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11626765 for two people recently discussing the actualities of this.

vbernat 10y ago

Debian only enforced the fact that if there is a /usr partition, it should be mounted by the initramfs. Moreover, the advanced partition scheme in debian-installer doesn't propose a separate /usr anymore. /usr can still be a separate partition and the split between /usr and /usr/bin still exists unless you install the usrmerge package.

psydk 10y ago

The Ubuntu document is from 2012 and the merge is not done on 16.04. How can we know if the change is still planned, and when? Is there a roadmap somewhere?

mariuolo 10y ago

> And this is true for quite a long time. I think the last distro that did /usr merge is Debian and this is already 3 years ago. So I find surprising that people still thinks that this is a issue. It hasn't happened on openSUSE yet:/

perfunctory 10y ago

Excuse me my naivety but I don't really understand what you mean by "This is not an issue and hasn't been for quite a long time". When I do ls / on any of my machines I still see /bin /usr/bin and all the rest.

gqg 10y ago
They are all symlinked - just different names for exactly the same directory in the file system. If you compare the contents, you will find they are identical. Edit: Nevermind, I am wrong :)
- tremon 10y ago
  $ ls -1 /bin | wc -l 127 $ ls -1 /usr/bin | wc -l 2271