5 ms·

It's weird. I read that thread and gave it a lot of thought over the last couple of days, and I was just deciding that I respected your choice (even if it wasn'

by hsod 10y ago

It's weird. I read that thread and gave it a lot of thought over the last couple of days, and I was just deciding that I respected your choice (even if it wasn't necessarily one I would have made myself). Then this unqualified mea culpa shows up and I don't know what to think. In the world of PR, there's a very strong bias towards appeasement. If a controversy gets big enough companies tend to just 'give in.' But these victories are hollow ones as the true rightness or wrongness of the controversial actions become irrelevant. It's impossible to know whether a corporate/organizational apology is genuine or if the stakeholders are simply appeasing the crowd. My gut says this phenomenon has become more powerful in the social media era as consumer voices are more easily amplified.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
YuriNiyazov 10y ago
You'll notice that there were two things at stake: 1) $20K 2) Participation in YCF Maciej was rejected because Kevin didn't want him to participate in YCF; Maciej' objection was always "I want my 20K", implying that though YC conflated those things to be the same, he saw them as separate. You'll note that this apology says "We've offered Maciej the $20k", and says nothing about YCF, so if it's appeasement, it's only partial. It seems most everyone is satisfied that dang apologized and Maciej said "donate the money". Frankly, I would've liked to see Maciej go through YC, because I think it might've had better long-term consequences for the ecosystem in general.
- bobwaycott 10y ago
  > Maciej was rejected because Kevin didn't want him to participate in YCF This is a pretty dishonest characterization, isn't it? Maciej was rejected because he didn't want to participate in YCF, according to what kevin and dang have previously explained about their post-vote phone call. Of course, that was their version of the call. I may have missed where Maciej countered with, "Not true. I wanted to participate in YCF. Kevin didn't want me in the group." Disclaimer: I voted for Pinboard.
  - lemming 10y ago
    No, it's not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633517 Kevin explained pretty clearly that it was his call, and Maciej disagreed with that.
    - bobwaycott 10y ago
      Ah, okay. So, Maciej did want to participate in YCF? I'm still not seeing him say that. Because I got the impression he only wanted the $20K (and I was okay with that, which is why I voted for Pinboard). Edit: I'm probably being overly pedantic here. I rally behind Maciej's contention that we are all adults and don't have to feel warm and fuzzy about each other to work together. I suppose that's his way of saying he was okay with participating in YCF. I seem to be in the group who read the Apply HN experiment as applying via the community, and entailing YCF participation. I keep getting the sense from Maciej and others that their reading was this was a contest to win $20K, with no expectation to participate in YCF. I'm probably in error here.
      - dsp1234 10y ago
        I'm still not seeing him say that "If the votes swing my way, I'd be happy to have a good-faith conversation with you."[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11441978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11441978
        bobwaycott 10y ago
        Man, I find it sad that 30 days ago, there seemed to be such a positively exuberant attitude. So, good-faith conversation occurred. Didn't go well obviously. Definitely seems to indicate that 30 days ago, there was an understanding that participating in YCF and winning the $20K wasn't simply a matter of votes swinging one way.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  "Maciej said "donate the money". " Where did he say that? I missed it somehow. In the Twitter feed and HN comments, he kept saying he'd invest the money in his business in various ways. The Apply HN said something similar although in a trolling way. Never mentioned he intended to throw it away while others were going to build (or improve) a business with it.
  - YuriNiyazov 10y ago
    Are you asking how dang found out? I assume this happened in a private conversation. We got told in this post. "We've offered Maciej the $20k, and he graciously accepted and asked us to donate it to the San Francisco Coalition on Homelessness (http://www.cohsf.org/ http://www.cohsf.org/). We'll take care of doing so." Edit: I assume dang isn't lying; if he had been, @Pinboard would've already skewered this post.
    - nickpsecurity 10y ago
      Oh yeah, I figured he was telling the truth. I just find it strange that there was so much wrath for YC's questionable action about funding Pinboard but not a peep about Maciej getting the investment and then throwing it away on charity. They agreed to do it to make the situation right but his end seems to still be fraudulent.
      - scott_s 10y ago
        I think "fraudulent" is unfair and uncharitable.
        nickpsecurity 10y ago
        He claimed to want an investment into his business with many specific possible uses. After many gripes here and there, they caved to give it to him. He gave it to a charity. Promise one thing for cash and do another involved is the basic definition of fraud. Only difference is they went along with it to right a wrong. Had he not entered, money would've possibly gone to a startup doing exactly what they promised they'd do.
nostrademons 10y ago
I respected YC's choice, but also noted that it's not how I would have interpreted the use of the word "experiment" in the original post. I think that that's a lot of what people were upset about: whether the decision was right or wrong, it was poorly communicated, as were the original goals & parameters of the process. It's possible to be right about a lot of things while still being wrong about something important, and it's also possible to apologize for that without giving up the whole decision entirely.

by hsod 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

YuriNiyazov 10y ago

You'll notice that there were two things at stake: 1) $20K 2) Participation in YCF Maciej was rejected because Kevin didn't want him to participate in YCF; Maciej' objection was always "I want my 20K", implying that though YC conflated those things to be the same, he saw them as separate. You'll note that this apology says "We've offered Maciej the $20k", and says nothing about YCF, so if it's appeasement, it's only partial. It seems most everyone is satisfied that dang apologized and Maciej said "donate the money". Frankly, I would've liked to see Maciej go through YC, because I think it might've had better long-term consequences for the ecosystem in general.

bobwaycott 10y ago
> Maciej was rejected because Kevin didn't want him to participate in YCF This is a pretty dishonest characterization, isn't it? Maciej was rejected because he didn't want to participate in YCF, according to what kevin and dang have previously explained about their post-vote phone call. Of course, that was their version of the call. I may have missed where Maciej countered with, "Not true. I wanted to participate in YCF. Kevin didn't want me in the group." Disclaimer: I voted for Pinboard.
- lemming 10y ago
  No, it's not: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633517 Kevin explained pretty clearly that it was his call, and Maciej disagreed with that.
  - bobwaycott 10y ago
    Ah, okay. So, Maciej did want to participate in YCF? I'm still not seeing him say that. Because I got the impression he only wanted the $20K (and I was okay with that, which is why I voted for Pinboard). Edit: I'm probably being overly pedantic here. I rally behind Maciej's contention that we are all adults and don't have to feel warm and fuzzy about each other to work together. I suppose that's his way of saying he was okay with participating in YCF. I seem to be in the group who read the Apply HN experiment as applying via the community, and entailing YCF participation. I keep getting the sense from Maciej and others that their reading was this was a contest to win $20K, with no expectation to participate in YCF. I'm probably in error here.
    - dsp1234 10y ago
      I'm still not seeing him say that "If the votes swing my way, I'd be happy to have a good-faith conversation with you."[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11441978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11441978
      - bobwaycott 10y ago
        Man, I find it sad that 30 days ago, there seemed to be such a positively exuberant attitude. So, good-faith conversation occurred. Didn't go well obviously. Definitely seems to indicate that 30 days ago, there was an understanding that participating in YCF and winning the $20K wasn't simply a matter of votes swinging one way.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
nickpsecurity 10y ago
"Maciej said "donate the money". " Where did he say that? I missed it somehow. In the Twitter feed and HN comments, he kept saying he'd invest the money in his business in various ways. The Apply HN said something similar although in a trolling way. Never mentioned he intended to throw it away while others were going to build (or improve) a business with it.
- YuriNiyazov 10y ago
  Are you asking how dang found out? I assume this happened in a private conversation. We got told in this post. "We've offered Maciej the $20k, and he graciously accepted and asked us to donate it to the San Francisco Coalition on Homelessness (http://www.cohsf.org/ http://www.cohsf.org/). We'll take care of doing so." Edit: I assume dang isn't lying; if he had been, @Pinboard would've already skewered this post.
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    Oh yeah, I figured he was telling the truth. I just find it strange that there was so much wrath for YC's questionable action about funding Pinboard but not a peep about Maciej getting the investment and then throwing it away on charity. They agreed to do it to make the situation right but his end seems to still be fraudulent.
    - scott_s 10y ago
      I think "fraudulent" is unfair and uncharitable.
      - nickpsecurity 10y ago
        He claimed to want an investment into his business with many specific possible uses. After many gripes here and there, they caved to give it to him. He gave it to a charity. Promise one thing for cash and do another involved is the basic definition of fraud. Only difference is they went along with it to right a wrong. Had he not entered, money would've possibly gone to a startup doing exactly what they promised they'd do.

nostrademons 10y ago

I respected YC's choice, but also noted that it's not how I would have interpreted the use of the word "experiment" in the original post. I think that that's a lot of what people were upset about: whether the decision was right or wrong, it was poorly communicated, as were the original goals & parameters of the process. It's possible to be right about a lot of things while still being wrong about something important, and it's also possible to apologize for that without giving up the whole decision entirely.