7 ms·

Like early OneDrive and Windows 8, I really hope a couple people got fired over this debacle. But like today's OneDrive, Windows 10 and .NET Core, I'm glad it's

by tacos 10y ago

Like early OneDrive and Windows 8, I really hope a couple people got fired over this debacle. But like today's OneDrive, Windows 10 and .NET Core, I'm glad it's finally moving forward. I know HN has an anti-Microsoft bias from pg on down, but this is serious, proven tech that's moving in the right direction. Say what you want about MS, but their R&D budget is larger and more focused on developers than any other company, decade after decade.

shanselman 10y ago
Wait, what debacle? Why do you want us fired?
- c17r 10y ago
  Scott, love what you guys are doing, keep it up! I did C# for 7 years and recently switched to Python but with the latest, thinking about switching back. Couple of questions: 1) will non-Windows platforms be fully supported and performant in RC2 and RTM? 2) is there a good place to follow along the non-Windows work?
- tacos 10y ago
  I owe you a long, private email (I'm a fan of your work.. and an ex Microsoft dev manager) but the way this was handled was not good. A RC that wasn't, public fumbling, throwing away schedules, and you can't even come up with a sane name for the damn thing. Too early, too weird, and poorly managed. For such an amazing, important technology that's such a massive leap forward in size and interoperability! It smelled like OneDrive. And I'll provide this quote to demonstrate the type of insanity that leaks out of my beloved Redmond on occasion... "Prior to Windows 8.1, we had two sync experiences. One used on Windows 7/8/Mac to connect to the consumer service, and a second sync engine to connect to the commercial service (OneDrive for Business). In Windows 8.1 we introduced a third sync engine..." Current beef is the BashOnWindows alpha. Why was this pushed out so early? Quite literally nothing works on it. The forward progress even in the past few weeks is impressive but... it's bad. Ubuntu Trusty was a weird release to begin with and now it's in a weird time in its lifecycle where it's very difficult to get modern versions of gcc, clang, python 3.5 or even ffmpeg. Not that you could run cmake anyway. But meanwhile you shipped bits where "apt-get update" itself failed right out of the box. I don't get it. EDIT: HN is limiting my ability to reply to you Scott but my frustration with Bash on Windows is both. The quality of the early bits is poor and I find the timing weird. Likewise Trusty itself is at a maximally frustrating stage of its lifecycle for anyone new jumping in (Stack Overflow is already filling up with newbie Bash/Ubuntu questions that are often tied to Windows bugs. And geeze, just let the insanity of that sentence sink in.) From a technical perspective I don't love the alpha. From a dev/engineering/coder perspective I don't love Trusty. From a strategic perspective, just like .NET Core, I'm wondering WTF is going on, thus the rant.
  - shanselman 10y ago
    Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. The public asked for open and we gave them Open with a pretty capital O. When this project started we didn't know we were buying Xamarin, so that required a pivot. Yes it looked messy because it was messy. It's hard to be Open AND Organized. Node is a mess, remember io.js? Software Development is messy and this was a peek into the kitchen. I can't speak to OneDrive, but it's clearly a problem. Unfortunately, I work in DevDiv, not Windows. As far as Bash is concerned, I think "literally nothing works" is not fair. I helped with this release. I presented on it for 90 minutes this morning and installed and brought in build-essentials, worked on redis-server, g++, ruby, and it worked fine. Yes there's rough areas, but we can update it often with WU. Also, you're complaining about Trusty in the same breath as Bash on Windows. You'll be able to update to 16.04 later so that might help. And, you're certainly able to Hyper-V any Linux and SSH in as well.
    - dizzy3gg 10y ago
      I for one have enjoyed the dnx/dotnet cli journey and have engaged in communities I never knew existed. Thanks.
    - tacos 10y ago
      I'll give a polite tip of the hat but warn that cutesy redis demos are starting to wear thin. The C++ support in the tools you get after installing build-essentials on Trusty smells like Visual Studio 2010. As for .NET core, you'll get plenty of warm fuzzy "just happy to be part of the journey" crap here but don't forget that for every unemployed enthusiast chatting in an issues thread on github there are 100 professionals working their asses off trying to ship solutions. That's why you exist. Don't lose that. "Things may not work perfectly, but that is why it's no production code." Ugh. They called it a Release Candidate! And it was... crap. Tools support isn't like horseshoes, almost doesn't count. Likewise you need breadth and depth with your Linux support or this is going to be a total friggin' debacle for devs.
      - shanselman 10y ago
        So is it BashOnWindows that is the problem, or a frustration with Trusty itself as a distro?
- jackfoxy 10y ago
  Yeah, no debacle whatsoever. And Scott, don't forget to give F# some love here, especially being as it is not on Roslyn and it's important its project system stay current with whatever son of MSBUILD becomes. When .NET Core really starts to take hold outside of the Windows environment, and it will, there are people in those environments looking for a better functional-first programming solution than what they have, and it will be F#.
  - shanselman 10y ago
    Totally agree on F#. I'm 100% paying attention to C#, VB, and F# and making sure everyone kicks butt.
    - oblio 10y ago
      Totally honest question: in the world of Javascript, Python, Ruby, etc. is Visual Basic still relevant? I understand the desire to have it around to drag VB devs to .NET, but is there a market anymore? Wouldn't it be better to just throw it overboard and focus on C# / F# and maybe Typescript as a JS superset?
      - tracker1 10y ago
        There's one pretty cool feature that VB.Net has that C#/F# don't and that's an XML literal syntax... I wrote a service interface to a Flex client a few years ago (also having an XML literal syntax) and it was pretty nice going. Of course E4X didn't take hold and the syntax didn't make it into C#, but it was nice at the time. These days I'd lean towards JSON.Net before anything XML based if I can avoid it. WCF could use a little love too.
      - jongalloway2 10y ago
        There's a lot of customer demand for VB.NET support: https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-2015/suggestions/7470103-vb-net-should-be-fully-supported-in-asp-net-vnext https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-stud... https://github.com/aspnet/Home/issues/236 https://github.com/aspnet/Home/issues/236 http://www.infoq.com/news/2015/04/VB-Core http://www.infoq.com/news/2015/04/VB-Core http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/introducing-asp-net-5#after-content http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/introducing-asp-net-5#after-c... https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/vstudio/en-US/22697f65-b00e-49dc-ae73-4bbf9808a434/is-it-true-that-aspnet-50-not-having-vb-as-an-language?forum=vbgeneral https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/vstudio/en-US/22697...
- asmdb 10y ago
  Not really sure exactly where OP is coming from, but kudos to you guys for all the hard work. Just worked on a MVC6 app recently and I really like the new DI and front-end tooling features. Thanks!
- vyrotek 10y ago
  Thank you for what you do for the .NET community! Especially for what you guys are doing with https://live.asp.net https://live.asp.net. I really enjoy all the discussions and banter between you, Jon, and Damian. It brings a much needed human-element to these big framework changes. I do feel like there have been many surprises along the way but you guys handled them just fine. Just try to get some sleep Scott. ;)
- MikusR 10y ago
  You do great work. But it is sad seing the people that run Windows licensing and OneDrive destroy all the good you do.
rjbwork 10y ago
Maybe my C# dev bias is showing, but I have to second SHanselman's question: what debacle? They've been working on it solidly for a couple of years now with good progress and transparency in the Github repositories. Hell, MS is even putting their C# language design meeting notes online - you'd have never seen something like that 10 years ago. If you're talking about the tooling not being ready, I think this is a far better outcome than just holding off release until all the tooling is ready. I'll personally be sticking with ASP.NET 4.6 for a while, but once we've got a stable VS integration, probably move at some point.
- tacos 10y ago
  You've been working with .NET core for a couple of years? And found it solid? It was announced 17 months ago and it's been a frustrating clusterfuck to follow, with the product and the core tools themselves renamed at least twice. C# guy here! Love .NET! And found the open development wankery around .NET core (or whatever they finally call it) incredibly frustrating. EDIT: Putting strategy documents online, documentation online, and then throwing it away isn't helpful. Maybe you dig the churn. Maybe that's why you're sticking with .NET 4.6. If you're in the trenches trying to build stuff against these bits (especially after they were called RC), you may have a different opinion on the impact of the way this was handled.
  - rjbwork 10y ago
    >You've been working on .NET core for years? And found it solid? Please learn to read the text on your screen before commenting.

by tacos 10y ago

shanselman 10y ago

Wait, what debacle? Why do you want us fired?

c17r 10y ago
Scott, love what you guys are doing, keep it up! I did C# for 7 years and recently switched to Python but with the latest, thinking about switching back. Couple of questions: 1) will non-Windows platforms be fully supported and performant in RC2 and RTM? 2) is there a good place to follow along the non-Windows work?
tacos 10y ago
I owe you a long, private email (I'm a fan of your work.. and an ex Microsoft dev manager) but the way this was handled was not good. A RC that wasn't, public fumbling, throwing away schedules, and you can't even come up with a sane name for the damn thing. Too early, too weird, and poorly managed. For such an amazing, important technology that's such a massive leap forward in size and interoperability! It smelled like OneDrive. And I'll provide this quote to demonstrate the type of insanity that leaks out of my beloved Redmond on occasion... "Prior to Windows 8.1, we had two sync experiences. One used on Windows 7/8/Mac to connect to the consumer service, and a second sync engine to connect to the commercial service (OneDrive for Business). In Windows 8.1 we introduced a third sync engine..." Current beef is the BashOnWindows alpha. Why was this pushed out so early? Quite literally nothing works on it. The forward progress even in the past few weeks is impressive but... it's bad. Ubuntu Trusty was a weird release to begin with and now it's in a weird time in its lifecycle where it's very difficult to get modern versions of gcc, clang, python 3.5 or even ffmpeg. Not that you could run cmake anyway. But meanwhile you shipped bits where "apt-get update" itself failed right out of the box. I don't get it. EDIT: HN is limiting my ability to reply to you Scott but my frustration with Bash on Windows is both. The quality of the early bits is poor and I find the timing weird. Likewise Trusty itself is at a maximally frustrating stage of its lifecycle for anyone new jumping in (Stack Overflow is already filling up with newbie Bash/Ubuntu questions that are often tied to Windows bugs. And geeze, just let the insanity of that sentence sink in.) From a technical perspective I don't love the alpha. From a dev/engineering/coder perspective I don't love Trusty. From a strategic perspective, just like .NET Core, I'm wondering WTF is going on, thus the rant.
- shanselman 10y ago
  Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. The public asked for open and we gave them Open with a pretty capital O. When this project started we didn't know we were buying Xamarin, so that required a pivot. Yes it looked messy because it was messy. It's hard to be Open AND Organized. Node is a mess, remember io.js? Software Development is messy and this was a peek into the kitchen. I can't speak to OneDrive, but it's clearly a problem. Unfortunately, I work in DevDiv, not Windows. As far as Bash is concerned, I think "literally nothing works" is not fair. I helped with this release. I presented on it for 90 minutes this morning and installed and brought in build-essentials, worked on redis-server, g++, ruby, and it worked fine. Yes there's rough areas, but we can update it often with WU. Also, you're complaining about Trusty in the same breath as Bash on Windows. You'll be able to update to 16.04 later so that might help. And, you're certainly able to Hyper-V any Linux and SSH in as well.
  - dizzy3gg 10y ago
    I for one have enjoyed the dnx/dotnet cli journey and have engaged in communities I never knew existed. Thanks.
  - tacos 10y ago
    I'll give a polite tip of the hat but warn that cutesy redis demos are starting to wear thin. The C++ support in the tools you get after installing build-essentials on Trusty smells like Visual Studio 2010. As for .NET core, you'll get plenty of warm fuzzy "just happy to be part of the journey" crap here but don't forget that for every unemployed enthusiast chatting in an issues thread on github there are 100 professionals working their asses off trying to ship solutions. That's why you exist. Don't lose that. "Things may not work perfectly, but that is why it's no production code." Ugh. They called it a Release Candidate! And it was... crap. Tools support isn't like horseshoes, almost doesn't count. Likewise you need breadth and depth with your Linux support or this is going to be a total friggin' debacle for devs.
    - shanselman 10y ago
      So is it BashOnWindows that is the problem, or a frustration with Trusty itself as a distro?
jackfoxy 10y ago
Yeah, no debacle whatsoever. And Scott, don't forget to give F# some love here, especially being as it is not on Roslyn and it's important its project system stay current with whatever son of MSBUILD becomes. When .NET Core really starts to take hold outside of the Windows environment, and it will, there are people in those environments looking for a better functional-first programming solution than what they have, and it will be F#.
- shanselman 10y ago
  Totally agree on F#. I'm 100% paying attention to C#, VB, and F# and making sure everyone kicks butt.
  - oblio 10y ago
    Totally honest question: in the world of Javascript, Python, Ruby, etc. is Visual Basic still relevant? I understand the desire to have it around to drag VB devs to .NET, but is there a market anymore? Wouldn't it be better to just throw it overboard and focus on C# / F# and maybe Typescript as a JS superset?
    - tracker1 10y ago
      There's one pretty cool feature that VB.Net has that C#/F# don't and that's an XML literal syntax... I wrote a service interface to a Flex client a few years ago (also having an XML literal syntax) and it was pretty nice going. Of course E4X didn't take hold and the syntax didn't make it into C#, but it was nice at the time. These days I'd lean towards JSON.Net before anything XML based if I can avoid it. WCF could use a little love too.
    - jongalloway2 10y ago
      There's a lot of customer demand for VB.NET support: https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio-2015/suggestions/7470103-vb-net-should-be-fully-supported-in-asp-net-vnext https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-stud... https://github.com/aspnet/Home/issues/236 https://github.com/aspnet/Home/issues/236 http://www.infoq.com/news/2015/04/VB-Core http://www.infoq.com/news/2015/04/VB-Core http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/introducing-asp-net-5#after-content http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/introducing-asp-net-5#after-c... https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/vstudio/en-US/22697f65-b00e-49dc-ae73-4bbf9808a434/is-it-true-that-aspnet-50-not-having-vb-as-an-language?forum=vbgeneral https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/vstudio/en-US/22697...
asmdb 10y ago
Not really sure exactly where OP is coming from, but kudos to you guys for all the hard work. Just worked on a MVC6 app recently and I really like the new DI and front-end tooling features. Thanks!
vyrotek 10y ago
Thank you for what you do for the .NET community! Especially for what you guys are doing with https://live.asp.net https://live.asp.net. I really enjoy all the discussions and banter between you, Jon, and Damian. It brings a much needed human-element to these big framework changes. I do feel like there have been many surprises along the way but you guys handled them just fine. Just try to get some sleep Scott. ;)
MikusR 10y ago
You do great work. But it is sad seing the people that run Windows licensing and OneDrive destroy all the good you do.

rjbwork 10y ago

Maybe my C# dev bias is showing, but I have to second SHanselman's question: what debacle? They've been working on it solidly for a couple of years now with good progress and transparency in the Github repositories. Hell, MS is even putting their C# language design meeting notes online - you'd have never seen something like that 10 years ago. If you're talking about the tooling not being ready, I think this is a far better outcome than just holding off release until all the tooling is ready. I'll personally be sticking with ASP.NET 4.6 for a while, but once we've got a stable VS integration, probably move at some point.

tacos 10y ago
You've been working with .NET core for a couple of years? And found it solid? It was announced 17 months ago and it's been a frustrating clusterfuck to follow, with the product and the core tools themselves renamed at least twice. C# guy here! Love .NET! And found the open development wankery around .NET core (or whatever they finally call it) incredibly frustrating. EDIT: Putting strategy documents online, documentation online, and then throwing it away isn't helpful. Maybe you dig the churn. Maybe that's why you're sticking with .NET 4.6. If you're in the trenches trying to build stuff against these bits (especially after they were called RC), you may have a different opinion on the impact of the way this was handled.
- rjbwork 10y ago
  >You've been working on .NET core for years? And found it solid? Please learn to read the text on your screen before commenting.